On September 13, ScalingX and aelf successfully held an afterparty event called "Beyond Scaling" at the Michelin two-star restaurant SKAI at the Stamford Grand Hotel in Switzerland. The event coincided with the Token2049 and F1 week activities. The event also specially invited a group of industry authorities to participate in the roundtable discussion. The guest lineup included:
Jamie Burke, CEO, Outlier Ventures
Andrei Grachev, Managing Partner, DWF Labs
John Darsie, Partner at Skybridge Capital and Managing Director of SALT Conference
Alex Pack, Managing Partner, Hack VC
Akarsh Sanghi, Head of Product and Engineering, Worldcoin
The roundtable discussion was moderated by Chichi Hong, co-founder of ScalingX.
Highlights of the Guests
Host：
Hello everyone, I'm Chichi Hong, co-founder of ScalingX. I'm very happy to welcome everyone to today's event, and I'm very honored to introduce to you tonight's outstanding lineup of guests. Let's start with John from SkyBridge Capital, who is sitting next to me. It is reported that SkyBridge is currently working to launch a Bitcoin ETF, which has attracted widespread attention because the first Bitcoin ETF launched in the United States will send a key signal to the market. What do you think about this? In your opinion, what aspects of regulation have the United States done well, and what areas need improvement?
John Darsie | SkyBridge Capital：
First of all, thank you very much for inviting me. I am here on behalf of Anthony Scaramucci. Regarding Bitcoin ETF, as Chichi mentioned, we have worked with First Trust, one of the largest ETF issuers in the United States, to apply for a Bitcoin ETF to US regulators, which has attracted widespread attention.
We have to acknowledge that Grayscale has played a key role in driving this issue forward. Just in the past few days, Gary Gensler discussed the need to review all of these Bitcoin ETF applications. We believe that it is only a matter of time, depending on which applications he approves, that we will see live Bitcoin ETF trading in the United States. We believe that this will be an important moment for the asset class, both from the perspective of institutional investors and retail traders.
In the U.S., many high net worth individuals face several barriers to entry; they may not want to open a Coinbase account or invest in the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust because of structural issues. However, we have noticed a growing demand for Bitcoin from our limited partners and clients. We believe a Bitcoin ETF will meet this demand and serve as an inflection point that has the potential to spark another bull run in the crypto market. We are very excited about this development and expect it to be a historic moment.
Alex Pack | Hack VC:
When do you think this will happen?
John Darsie | SkyBridge Capital：
While I can’t give an exact timeline, I think we’ll likely see multiple spot Bitcoin ETFs approved in the next 6 to 9 months. Institutions like BlackRock and Cathie Wood have already submitted applications, and we hope ours will be one of the first to be approved. However, our primary goal is to advance the industry; we’re more focused on driving progress in this space than just being the first ETF approved.
Host：
Indeed, once it gets approved, it will be a big moment! Thanks John! Next up, we have Akarsh, Head of Product and Engineering from Worldcoin. You know, even today, I still get questions from some of my friends like “What is Worldcoin?” Even though it has gained a lot of attention, people still don’t quite understand it and the motivations behind it. Maybe you can explain a little bit.
Akarsh Sanghi | Worldcoin:
First of all, thank you very much for the invitation. Here's the thing, actually, a few years ago, Sam Altman was working on the OpenAI project (which many of you may be familiar with) and also launched Worldcoin. The main idea behind launching Worldcoin was that he realized that with the progress of artificial general intelligence (AGI), this type of language model technology will dominate. AGI is essentially the core of OpenAI. It may make it challenging to distinguish between robots and humans on the Internet. You know, the basic principles of the Internet today rely on measures like CAPTCHA to prevent robot attacks and solve the problem of how to redistribute capital and wealth generated by AI.
Initially, Worldcoin was just a whitepaper and proof of concept. A team was assembled to solve the problem of online identity and capital allocation. Over the past three and a half years, the concept has evolved into Worldcoin, which utilizes a biometric device called the Orb. You may have seen a booth demonstrating it here. The Orb can verify the unique identity of a living person, and Worldcoin builds on this foundation. It uses a token-based system to incentivize the establishment of a broad global network for identity verification and financial transactions.
So, this is the basic idea of Worldcoin. We launched the token a few months ago and so far, we have registered more than 2.2 million verified users from all over the world. This is the core concept of Worldcoin.
Host：
Thank you very much for sharing, which gives us a deeper understanding of the main ideas and motivations behind the establishment of Worldcoin. Next, we have Alex Pack from Hack VC. What I want to ask is, "What is Hack VC currently focusing on?" What industries or projects are you currently excited about?
Alex Pack | Hack VC:
Thanks for your question. I have been involved in the crypto venture capital space for about a decade, starting in 2014. Historically, our investments have been heavily focused on infrastructure. My partners and I supported most of the major Layer 1 and Layer 2 solutions, as well as various DeFi protocols early on. These remain our core investments as we believe they will play a key role in driving mainstream adoption of cryptocurrencies.
The biggest challenge facing cryptocurrency today is similar to the early days of the internet in the 90s. If you think back to the internet back then, it was rife with hacks and security issues, with little real use. It often seemed difficult and unreliable, just like cryptocurrency today. We still regularly witness major hacks, and even tools like MetaMask can be quite challenging for individuals over 40 years old, myself included (even though I’m not even 40 yet).
In recent years, much of the focus has been on scalability solutions, which are now gaining traction with the emergence of Layer 2 solutions and Ethereum 2.0. Looking ahead, I think the next phase will revolve around some basic primitives. First, there is the need for privacy. Without strong privacy features, it will be difficult for enterprises to fully embrace blockchain technology. This involves concepts such as zero-knowledge proofs and enhanced encryption.
Additionally, I think building an identity layer is another foundational principle, along with privacy and RWA. All of these elements are interrelated, and together they will improve trust, security, scalability, and usability for everyone over time.
Oh, and by the way, there was a booth over there where you could scan your iris. It's a great initiative to bring crypto to more people, and you can even get rewarded with tokens. I'm not an investor in Worldcoin myself, but I really like it!
Host：
Thank you so much for your insights! I would like to ask Jamie the same question. Outlier Venture is both an incubator and a VC in some ways. Can you share some of the areas or projects you are particularly excited about?
Jamie Burke | Outlier Venture:
Indeed, despite the seeming distinction in terms, we are actually an accelerator, not an incubator. This distinction is important because we have had experience as an incubator in the past, and the two roles are slightly different. Alex, has been in the crypto space for a full decade, which is a remarkable achievement. So he can attest that in the early days, there are not many investment opportunities. If there are, they are usually related to early infrastructure, usually involving extensive R&D work. Incubators are usually focused on multi-year R&D, basically a pre-commercialization stage. So right now, we are firmly an accelerator.
Now, we are considered an accelerator most of the time, although we still invest in infrastructure. Currently, we closely follow all aspects of zero-knowledge (ZK) technology. In fact, this year we are overseeing a second ZK team, and ScalingX is one of our valued partners. Our interests cover the middleware and application layers, representing the commercialization of the Web3 stack. This is the general scope of our activities.
While we work with different protocol ecosystems, it is primarily from a partnership perspective. Over the years, we have worked with ecosystems such as Aptos, Near, Polygon, etc. However, thematically, DeFi has been an area of continued interest, especially as it relates to a subset of RWAs. Identity verification is another area that has piqued our interest.
In fact, there are three things in Web3 that have always puzzled us, but we believe they are inevitable and will change the rules of the game once they are realized. The first is decentralized identity. The second is interoperability across the metaverse, and the third is RWA. The challenge is that it takes time for the network effects to fully take effect, but when they do happen, they will catalyze each other. So, these three areas have been the objects of our persistent attention.
In addition, there is another area that has always fascinated us - the integration of Web3 and artificial intelligence. I even discussed this topic on a panel at the Token2049 conference earlier today. While this may be fashionable at the moment, it has been at the core of our argument for a long time. We wrote our first paper on this topic in 2017, and we have extended it several times since. Our investments have spanned projects from Ocean Protocol to Fetch.ai, and even supported early members of the DeepMind team exploring decentralized agent-based systems, among many other projects. We have a strong belief in certain developments that we believe are inevitable; it is just a matter of time and we will continue to invest in them.
However, as an accelerator, we operate within a marketplace framework, connecting supply (startups) with demand (VCs). If no other VCs are showing interest in a particular space, then there is no point for us to bring a startup to the market in that space. We have to coordinate the timing of these elements, and it is often a delicate balance. In general, the Web3 VC space is very dynamic, with frequent changes in attention and trends, a bit like collective ADHD. The Web3 VC space tends to be fickle, with a short attention span, and often moves with the heat of the moment. As a result, we have to adapt and align with the dynamics of the broader VC industry.
Host：
Wow! Great and insightful answers too. We are excited for the second cohort of ZK startups and see the transformative solutions these companies bring to the table. It’s worth mentioning that Outlier Venture is also one of the official accelerator partners of our just announced Transcend Beyond global accelerator alliance. If you want to learn more, feel free to visit ScalingX’s official website and join our social channels for regular updates! Next up, we have Andrei, Managing Partner at DWF Labs. Can you go over some of the recent hot topics in the market, especially around CYBER and CRV? Because they’ve generated quite a bit of attention in this space!
Andrei Grachev | DWF Labs:
Thanks so much for having me here. I want to start by talking about CRV. I can't go into detail, but we recently expanded our support for them. We currently hold CRV tokens in our public wallet and are actively exploring ways to increase our support for them. Whether people like it or not, CRV is currently playing a key role in the DeFi ecosystem in the crypto space. From the outside, it may not seem that special; we just acquired the tokens and now they are sitting in our wallet. Many people have the opportunity to do the same thing. Personally, although the CRV team has made mistakes in the past, in this specific context, I think they have done well. They distributed their tokens to various market participants, including larger ones, which prompted commitments to support CRV in various ways. This approach seems to be more beneficial than just selling everything to us or other participants.
Now, turning the focus to CYBER, let's take a step back and assess the current market conditions. It can be said that the market is not in the best condition at the moment. Many people are eagerly waiting for specific developments, hoping to see a bull trend, but it has not emerged so far. As a result, futures trading and speculation have become quite evident. Many investors are still feeling the effects of the market decline since 2021 and are facing huge losses. In order to make up for the losses, they have turned to more speculative trading, which can be quite risky. Now, regarding CYBER, its token supply is relatively limited. I hold very few tokens on the ERC20 chain. Most of the tokens are on the Binance Smart Chain, including various launch platform tokens. There was a major crash in the market when the tokens on the ERC20 chain were transferred to Bithumb and faced difficulties due to the lack of arbitrage mechanisms supported between Bithumb and Binance. This was caused by the fact that the exchange did not support deposits and withdrawals.
This is exacerbated by current market conditions, which have responded with strong trading activity due to supply constraints. Many people have taken long and short positions, creating a frenzy that has seen futures volumes reach extraordinary levels, exceeding 10 billion. While I cannot attribute this to any single entity, it is more of a market-driven phenomenon.
It was a very interesting experience in my opinion, and I can’t say it was orchestrated by any one person, but market dynamics played a big role. That’s my take on this.
Host：
Very fair answer, thanks for sharing your insights. Now, let's go back to John. Could you please briefly introduce the SALT Conference and share your future plans in Asia? We have heard some interesting things and we are eager to learn more.
John Darsie | SkyBridge Capital：
Of course, I'm happy to provide some insight. I wear two hats. First, I'm a partner at Skybridge Capital, a multi-billion dollar asset management firm that focuses primarily on funds. However, about 15 years ago, Anthony Scaramucci started the SALT conference series. The main purpose of the SALT conference is to connect serious asset allocators with asset managers and startups that we believe have great potential. These entities can be established or emerging managers.
We are particularly excited about expanding our presence in the Asia Pacific region. Last November, we held our first Asia Pacific event, and this year we plan to partner with the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) and the Singapore FinTech Festival again from November 14-16. Our partnership with MAS and the Singapore FinTech Festival aims to connect not only institutional investors with asset managers, but also the traditional financial community with the world of Web3, crypto and digital assets.
We are gradually working to remove the suspicion that often exists in the traditional financial community, bringing them closer together by engaging them in events and dinners. In addition, we are willing to support every new initiative of large, established asset managers or traditional financial companies in the field of crypto and Web3. This includes major milestones such as Fidelity entering the custody business, Blackstone launching Bitcoin Trust, and BNY Mellon establishing a custody program.
As passionate believers in this space, our long-term mission is to help our counterparts in the traditional financial world smoothly move into the future. We are excited about the next phase of this journey, which will be held in Singapore this November. We currently hold four events around the world: New York, Miami, Abu Dhabi - a region that has shown great interest in building a strong Web3 ecosystem - and in Singapore. Singapore has always been a strong performer in crypto regulations and digital asset adoption. Therefore, we are very excited about our efforts here. Thank you for this excellent question!
Host：
OK, we look forward to attending the event! Now, Akarsh, as the Head of Product and Engineering at Worldcoin, we believe you are the ideal person to answer this question. Given the recent concerns in the market regarding iris scanning, can you share the steps that Worldcoin has taken to ensure the security of personal biometric data and prevent any potential misuse? Also, can you provide some insights into the technology used for this purpose?
Akarsh Sanghi | Worldcoin:
There have been some misunderstandings in the news and media regarding Worldcoin’s use of biometrics, especially in relation to data privacy, that I think need to be clarified. First, our primary use of biometrics is to verify that an individual is a unique living human being. We have conducted extensive research and concluded that there is no more effective way to achieve this goal on a global scale than biometrics. While other approaches have been tried, such as those based on trust networks where individuals vouch for each other’s uniqueness, these have limitations in terms of scalability. As a result, we have had to use biometrics as the default option.
It’s important to clarify some basic facts about Worldcoin. First, we do not collect any personal information from our users. Our Worldcoin wallet application is completely non-custodial, meaning that users do not need to provide any personal information, not even their name, and are therefore completely anonymous.
As for iris scanning, it is important to emphasize that this is an opt-in method. Users can opt-in and upload their biometric data to our central servers for machine learning and neural network training. But by default, we do not store any data and the generated iris code will remain completely anonymous. There is currently no proven mathematical method to reverse engineer the original iris image from the generated hash value.
To address any concerns you may have, we have documented our technology in detail. You can find detailed information in our whitepaper and privacy FAQ. We have gone into depth about the entire system design to ensure openness and transparency, and clearly explain how our system protects privacy.
Host：
Yes! For now, leveraging zero-knowledge technology may be the best solution. Congratulations to the Worldcoin team on their remarkable progress so far! So, Alex, I have a really interesting question for you. What are your thoughts on FTX and Sam? What specific aspects or actions by FTX make you question their credibility or business practices?
Alex Pack | Hack VC:
My opinion of FTX or Sam is actually quite negative. It's really interesting. We have a history with FTX, like almost everyone does now. I was one of the first investors to do due diligence in the early days when FTX was still called Alameda. Initially, they had no plans to launch an exchange. In fact, we offered to invest, but after about five months of extensive due diligence and reviewing their documents, we withdrew our investment proposal. This was in the 2018-19 period, and things were very bad. After that, we were kind of blacklisted by Sam and he didn't want us to participate in transactions with them, considering that Alameda and FTX had allegedly invested in about 500 transactions with customer funds.
It's quite challenging because we are a US-based venture capital fund, coming out of Silicon Valley, with a lot of institutional investors. We operate in that world. Unfortunately, FTX raised a lot of money, probably about $1 billion, maybe more, but they also lost about $10 billion of customer funds, mostly in Asia, not in the US, mostly involving customers in places like Singapore. Some of you may have experienced losses as well.
The problem is that even if you are an FTX investor with a relatively small stake (FTX investors typically have huge funds), and your one crypto trade of the year is to invest a small portion of FTX's assets, and then your investment becomes involved in one of the largest alleged frauds in history, it is very disturbing. Such an experience may prevent you from considering crypto investment again, which is a pity.
Rather ironically, many of the recent gains in crypto markets, with Bitcoin up about 50% to 60% year to date, have come from Asia, even from people who lost money at FTX. However, institutional investors, whose losses account for only a fraction of that, are proceeding with caution, awaiting clear guidance from regulation, ETFs, and other developments before entering the market.
This situation highlights the problem when large-scale fraud occurs. I believe that as DeFi and identity solutions advance, we will eventually reach a point where it will not only be difficult for FTX to replicate, but almost impossible in the future. It becomes much more difficult to steal $10 billion in customer funds when everything is transparent and open source because everything is recorded on the blockchain. For example, DWF Labs has shown how much visibility we can get into people's actions and losses on a blockchain network. These are some of my thoughts on this issue.
Host：
That's a really great story, thank you for sharing it with us! Now, let's turn to Jamie. With your extensive experience in the Web3 space, you have a deep understanding of the space. However, for some, even those working in the Web3 industry, understanding its complexity can be challenging. Can you provide a deeper perspective? Specifically, do cryptocurrencies play a role in shaping trust on the Internet, and if so, what aspects of that role should include?
Jamie Burke | Outlier Venture:
This is a profound and somewhat abstruse question. Before blockchain entered the market, people were already thinking about the cost of trust, especially on a global scale. The concept is that trust, or lack thereof, can significantly hinder economic activity. If you cannot trust your counterparty, whether an individual or a company, you are less likely to make a transaction, purchase a product, or use a service. Anything that can reduce the friction required to trust another party—to verify its identity, to ensure that an AI or smart contract behaves as expected—could provide a huge boost to the global economy.
Now, when it comes to Web3, it has the potential to change the way we trust and transact. For politicians, whether they are governing large countries or city-states, this is an opportunity, especially in environments with limited or declining economic growth. They can explore ways to facilitate more transactions, more trade, and increase the velocity of money at a lower cost.
It’s fairly obvious that people in traditional finance have recognized this potential. Now the question is, when will Web3 really start to have a significant impact? Honestly, while Web3 and DeFi have huge potential, we haven’t quite realized it yet. If you think about DeFi, only a small percentage of crypto holders are actively participating in DeFi in a meaningful way. So, achieving global financial inclusion or implementing concepts like a universal basic income (UBI) is entirely feasible, but at the same time, I think we have to do a deep reflection on the reality of Web3 today.
In times of real growth scarcity, we are essentially running experiments and playing games, often akin to Ponzi schemes. Everyone is aware of this. However, this does not negate the profound potential of Web3. For example, certain sectors within the art space are truly building Web3, leveraging NFTs, and moving beyond pure PFP markets. They are engaging in activities such as market making, similar to small-cap markets.
In summary, while we are still a long way from actually seeing Web3 have a real and significant impact, there is a growing recognition that it is more than just a playground and has the ability to reach the masses. We Web3 advocates are often asked: "What are the killer dApps or protocols that have impacted millions of people in a consumer context?" Whether one agrees with Worldcoin's approach or not, it represents a move towards achieving mass adoption. I hope my answer helps everyone understand more deeply!
Host：
Great answer! When I was initially digging into Web3, I spent a lot of time and effort on it as well. I read a ton of books and online articles to get a feel for what it would eventually become and how people would view Web3. So, you did a great job of providing such great insights! The last question for today goes to Andrei. Are there any upcoming projects that you are particularly optimistic about? Do you have specific criteria when choosing projects to work with?
Andrei Grachev | DWF Labs:
You raise an important point. Mentioning specific project names is often a sensitive issue and is best avoided. However, in terms of market trends, I can share my insights. ZK Rollups and digital identity are certainly areas of high anticipation, as evidenced by the development of projects such as Worldcoin. As globalization continues to deepen and people's dependence on a single country gradually decreases, financial fragmentation in certain regions is increasing. I believe that digital identity will continue to become more and more important.
In addition, I think cross-chain solutions are also quite promising. Although Ethereum dominates in terms of transactions and total locked value (TVL), accounting for about 80% of the market share, there are other popular blockchains. In order to achieve widespread adoption, it should be easier for users to interact with various blockchains using a single wallet and a single currency. This will eliminate the need to hold multiple assets, similar to the need to manage different currencies in a bank account. I believe this direction is full of potential.
Host：
OK! Thanks for sharing your perspectives. So let's move on to a general question. Feel free to answer from your own perspective. Given that you are currently based in Asia, and Singapore in particular, what do you see as the next big opportunity in the Asian market?
John Darsie | SkyBridge Capital:
I have been inspired by the optimism and tenacity of Asian investors. Despite the volatility in the crypto space over the past two years, Asian investors have shown strong determination. In contrast, in the United States, regulators and institutional investors may have had a less than satisfactory experience with Web3 investments, which has led to growing skepticism. But in Asia, even if they suffer losses or investment failures, people are still full of motivation and commitment to work tirelessly in this field.
For Skybridge, our focus is to raise more capital from investors in Asia to advance our mission of bridging Trad-Fi and DeFi. We are also actively looking for Asian asset managers and startups that are actively engaging in this space. At this time, the US is unfortunately lagging behind in both regulation and entrepreneurial momentum, so we are very much looking forward to strengthening our involvement in the Asia-Pacific region, which is full of optimism, energy and demographics.
Akarsh Sanghi | Worldcoin:
I feel similarly about this. The U.S. government, and the SEC in particular, has taken a very hostile approach to the industry as a whole, which is unprecedented in the U.S. in particular. This is primarily due to the monetary nature associated with the tokens. In contrast, Asia has quickly caught up and taken a more forward-looking stance on regulation. Additionally, Asians are more receptive to these technologies than Western Europe, the UK or North America. We have achieved significant success in markets such as Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore, which has prompted us to further expand into the Southeast Asian market.
For Worldcoin, it is clear that our future growth will be focused primarily on Asia. You can expect to hear more from us in this space in the coming months.
Alex Pack | Hack VC:
Indeed, I am very interested in this as well. This is somewhat related to the regulatory environment, but I am particularly looking forward to the emergence of stablecoins in Asia and the integration of national debt on blockchain platforms. For example, Singapore recently announced the launch of its own stablecoin, and I believe other Asian countries or city-states will follow suit in the near future. The cautious attitude or reluctance of the United States has become an opportunity for Asia to some extent, providing an opportunity for innovation and development in the region.
Jamie Burke | Outlier Venture:
What I can share is that we at Outlier Ventures do not make clear distinctions between regions. We have a central philosophy of solving universal problems, even though these problems may have some local differences in specific markets. Our goal is to work with the best entrepreneurs to solve these challenges, which is why we choose to operate virtually rather than being constrained to a physical location like Silicon Valley or London.
There are a few factors that continue to appeal to us in terms of what we continue to feel passionate about. We are particularly bullish on agent systems because we believe they will be critical to moving AI beyond its current limitations, especially when based on training data from the open web. Achieving AGI-like scaling of experiences may rely on back-end markets, which dovetail nicely with blockchain technology and infrastructure. Additionally, we remain excited about the concept of an open metaverse, and we have seen significant progress in infrastructure that emphasizes interoperability.
In our portfolio, projects like Futureverse are actively developing and working on cross-game engine assets through partnerships and integrations with startups like Crucible, realizing the potential for interoperability. We are also interested in RWA. In the gaming space, we see a shift from basic play-to-earn games to fully immersive experiences.
Additionally, we are preparing to launch a project on the future of e-commerce in partnership with Walmart, which we call “dcommerce”. This initiative stems from the idea we had when we invested in Boson Protocol in 2017. The core idea is to redefine e-commerce, including aspects such as marketing, inventory management, customer lifecycle management (CRM), and last-mile delivery. We believe this can rival most existing e-commerce solutions in terms of experience level. These trends and areas of interest are equally applicable in Asia and the West.
Andrei Grachev | DWF Labs:
One thing I want to emphasize about Asia is that the big moves and developments often originate in the West, especially the United States. For example, concepts such as ETFs, large-scale investments, and major exchanges often first emerged there. But these activities are often strongly supported by Asian investors, which is a key factor in their growth. In Asia, both retail and institutional investors generally have a higher risk tolerance.
During bull runs, especially in the case of large projects with a broad user base, Asia plays a central role, as mentioned earlier. For example, even FTX has a majority of Asian users in its user base compared to non-Asian users. Due to this dynamic, I believe Asia will continue to play a significant role in the next bull run and subsequent development phases in the crypto space. This support will be primarily reflected through secondary market activity and second-stage funding. In addition, Asia has a growing number of cryptocurrency users, and more countries in the region are actively embracing the crypto space, further enhancing its importance in terms of users, risk tolerance, and working capital.
Host：
Thank you very much for joining us. We are honored to have this discussion with you and we really enjoyed it. You really provided us with many valuable insights tonight. I am sure our audience enjoyed the discussion as well. That's all for today. I hope you all have a great evening and enjoy your food and drinks!
