Article reproduced from: BlockBeats

Original interview: The Thread Guy;

Guest: Benjels, co-founder of pump.science, member of molecule;

Original translation: zhouzhou, BlockBeats

Editor's Note: This interview features Benjels, co-founder of pump.science, whose activities in Bangkok, supported by CZ and Vitalik, have brought a lot of attention to DeSci. The interview discusses the innovations brought by DeSci and future development directions, mentioning the practical significance of raising experimental funds through token trading to promote medical and longevity technologies. At the same time, Benjels also brings new alpha information, indicating that pump.science will launch nearly 20 new experimental tokens around Christmas.

Below is the original content (for ease of reading and understanding, the original content has been rearranged):

About Pump.Science

Thread Guy: Can you briefly introduce yourself and this project (pump.science)?

Benjels: I am a scientist and also a 'retail investor'. What frustrates me is that there is no way to balance these two identities in the market. For example, you can trade stocks of biotech companies, but their data release cycles can take months, lacking that real-time update and speculation continuity. Sports betting is different; you can bet on the dynamics of the game in real-time. But there is no such model in the scientific field, so we want to create such a 'game' for science.

Thread Guy: Sounds interesting. How does it work specifically?

Benjels: Specifically, our team initially made compounds into NFTs, but later realized that people actually care more about 'fungible tokens'. The appeal of NFTs is limited, and most people prefer to own a part of the entire asset. So we shifted to tokenizing the intellectual property of drug compounds.

Thread Guy: Is it breaking the intellectual property into tokens on-chain?

Benjels: Exactly. We represent the intellectual property of a compound in the form of tokens that can be traded. Compared to buying stocks in a biotech company, where you have to hold all of that company's drugs, now you can choose to invest in a single drug.

Thread Guy: Why has no one done this before?

Benjels: Mainly because blockchain and crypto technologies are relatively new, the scientific community usually progresses slowly. Additionally, this involves complex legal issues, and we have spent a lot of money hiring lawyers to ensure everything is legal.

Thread Guy: Where can I purchase the intellectual property of such drugs?

Benjels: You need to contact pharmaceutical companies directly to inquire whether you can buy the intellectual property, which then involves lawyers and thousands of dollars in fees, making it very expensive because legal issues require lawyers to get involved. What we are currently doing is as simple as sending tokens. Instead of writing complex contracts for IP licensing, our solution is to send a token directly; this is our understanding of the authorization method.

Thread Guy: But hypothetically, is it possible to buy the intellectual property of nicotine under certain circumstances?

Benjels: Nicotine occurs naturally and cannot be patented. But if you combine nicotine with other substances, such as mixing it with caffeine, that combination can be patented. What we do is tokenize these patents or data and then test their effectiveness.

In simple terms, you can think of it this way: taking longevity as an example, we will test the compound's effects on animals. One area that particularly interests me is 'cognitive-enhancing drugs' (nurotropics), which are anything that helps the brain function more efficiently. For example, nicotine is a cognitive-enhancing drug, caffeine is also, and there are many similar compounds that can help improve brain function. We can also study through animal testing, such as verifying whether a substance helps rodents think better through different rodent experiments.

Overall, research like cognitive-enhancing drugs is something we can get involved in, but currently, 'longevity' is the easiest area to research because everyone ages, and the outcome of 'living or dying' is the easiest to understand. Therefore, we can use this data to attract investors.

Thread Guy: So the process you describe sounds like it needs to cross significant institutional barriers, eventually launching it on Pump.fun. Tell us about this process.

Benjels: We have launched two tokens, Rif (Rifampicin) and Uro (Urosodeoxycholic acid). Rif's market cap once approached 2.5 million dollars. Overall, the trading volume of these tokens has exceeded 1 billion dollars since their launch. The compounds behind these tokens can be used to develop supplements, and in the future, profits can be made through sales or patent licensing. To attract more people to invest, we need to develop a set of data proving the effectiveness of these compounds, such as significantly extending lifespan in animal tests.

When will new coins be released after RIF and URO?

Thread Guy: You already have two tokens, so when do you decide to launch the next one? How should we seize the early opportunity for the next one? Or should we buy existing tokens? What are your thoughts on this?

Benjels: New tokens may go live around Christmas. The first token is called Rif, so we will hold 'Rif Christmas'. We plan to launch 1 to 2 tokens daily for about 10 days. One thing to understand is that we are limited by the real world. The lab resources we collaborate with are limited, such as the number of equipment and experimental animals. If we fully open like Pump.fun and allow everyone to submit experiment requests, our experimental capacity would far exceed our capabilities. So initially, we need to maintain small-scale operations. The goal is to gradually scale up until anyone can submit experiments, forming a frenzy like Pump.fun.

We will start with about 20 tokens, gradually showcasing their development paths, including tokens like Rif and Uro, ultimately hoping to advance to human testing stages and even develop a product market to sell these different supplements. As for how to seize early opportunities, I can reveal some 'insider' information: we may launch 20 tokens around Christmas.

Thread Guy: I think most token enthusiasts usually believe the first token will be the most valuable. But the mechanism you described is more like 'survival of the fittest', seeing which drug performs the best. Do you think this dynamic will change? For those who want to participate and delve into DeSci projects, what advice or guidance do you have?

Benjels: I would suggest paying attention to some indicators; the coolest thing about science is that data is generated in real-time. While it sounds a bit cumbersome, the compounds we submit already exist, and you can look up related information online, possibly including related scientific papers. Our goal is to turn geeks into scientists while also converting scientists into geeks.

What makes this project special is its close connection to the real world, not just a 'meme'; these could be potential longevity drugs. You can learn about these compounds online, and we will also generate related data to provide early indicators for assessing their effectiveness. For example, we are currently conducting two experiments, both involving fruit flies. We will not only record whether the fruit flies are alive or dead, but also monitor their speed and distance.

Additionally, our goal is to combine the current AI craze to create an AI trading robot based on this data. We don't mind whether it's a person or AI trading. We realize that the future may be an AI-dominated trading era, especially in the scientific field. You can develop your own AI agent to trade using the data we provide. This is our vision for the future, especially in science, as this method is nearly impossible to implement in the real world, so we must 'gamify' the process.

Thread Guy: If there are currently two tokens, and later there will be 20 tokens, will the best-performing token be related to the best testing results?

Benjels: I won't directly comment on prices, but the market will determine the results itself. However, it can be said that experimental data may indeed have an impact on the performance of tokens.

How to monetize drug IP?

Thread Guy: Are you planning to sell these drugs to pharmaceutical companies?

Benjels: No, we will sell directly to consumers while providing clear data supporting its effectiveness. When you buy current supplements, it is difficult to know whether they are useful for you or what their specific effects are because there is no dedicated venue to test the effects of these supplements individually.

We are funding research through gamification and turning this data into part of our marketing, such as saying 'this supplement extended the lifespan of fruit flies by 50%, allowing them to run faster and travel further.' Currently, no one can propose similar research or conclusions. We hope to convert speculation into research funding while producing products that can genuinely extend life.

Thread Guy: Considering you have been working in this field for two years, can you talk about how you started? What is your team like?

Benjels: I have been working in the DeSci field for two years, and the Pump Science project was launched two weeks ago before the Breakpoint conference. We launched two tokens during the conference and have been working hard to develop this project since then.

Thread Guy: Did anyone express skepticism about your project? Especially when you first mentioned 'science', what was everyone's reaction?

Benjels: At first, everyone thought it was pretty unreliable. When it comes to 'science', people often think of those boring experiments, which seem rigid. But we want to make science seem less dull; you know many people found science class boring in high school, and we want to change that perception.

Imagine channeling the crazy energy of Degens (crypto enthusiasts) into science, allowing these people to participate in interesting experiments that ultimately help us extend life. This is the core of our project. This is actually a motivational theory similar to Polymarket: as long as the right incentives are set, people will find the right answers.

Thread Guy: The concept of 'Polymarket' that you mentioned is indeed interesting. Using incentive mechanisms to find the correct answer and applying this mechanism to science is quite a crazy idea. This is a significant signal; this might be the path that the next 'Elon' is taking!

Benjels: We hope to bring real longevity experts into this project and impress them with the data we generate. But we don't want to start by saying, 'Look at this crazy casino speculation game'; otherwise, they will just turn away.

Most of the people I admire are in the longevity field, and we will use research data to impress them and draw their attention. At that time, they will be curious: 'Who funded these experiments?' Then we will tell them it was the speculative market; this research approach is unprecedented.

Thread Guy: Will this data be used by other researchers? Or is it proprietary?

Benjels: Currently, this data is generated exclusively by us, but this is precisely the pain point in the longevity field. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not consider aging a disease. If you want to develop a drug, it must target diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc., because these are considered 'diagnoses.'

But aging is not regarded as a disease or diagnosis, so you cannot develop a drug solely for extending life. This leads to the public market essentially not funding this type of research, and the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) will not invest in this area either. VCs will not fund it either, as insurance will not cover the costs of supplements; only disease drugs can be covered by insurance. So funding sources for research are limited.

I think the deeper you go into the healthcare field, the more you can see the truth; it's like The Matrix where no one is there to help you stay healthy. Everyone wants you to be sick so they can sell you a super expensive drug to cure you, which is really a bit scary.

But this is precisely the opportunity for transformation: we can fund research ourselves rather than relying on VCs or the government. These funds may come from random 'speculators'.

Thread Guy: Obviously, I see a lot of value in various coins, and I do hope there is a channel for me to invest in an index of these things, or if there is a place to invest collectively, be it like a 'DAO' or something similar.

Benjels: I have some insider information to share. Last Wednesday, I had dinner with Shaw and Bao, and they plan to create a DAO fund. Although the details are not finalized yet, we are making progress, and there may be actions soon. We will announce it on Twitter when the time comes. However, there is a problem: we don't want to create a market and fund tokens in the market at the same time, as that would look too suspicious. Therefore, we are looking for an external team to operate this fund.

Thread Guy: How do you submit a drug? For example, can Thread Guy submit a compound?

Benjels: Of course! If you have ideas, you can submit an application on our website. However, currently, about 90% of submissions involve illegal or controlled substances like THC and other drugs. Unfortunately, due to the laboratory needing licenses, we cannot work with these compounds.

Thread Guy: What kind of projects can be submitted? Is there really no research left to be done in the world?

Benjels: You might feel that you have completed all the research, but you haven't. The essence of science is to explore those yet-to-be-researched questions and find answers. This is the meaning of science, to identify the important questions that drive human progress.

So our current idea is that we have a relatively simple form where you can submit your ideas. The form is on our website. If you go to the pump.science website, it basically says 'Submit new experiments'; you can submit anything you want, and we are collecting good ideas and bringing those people in as developers, what we call 'drug developers'.

They will submit experiments and own the intellectual property. So in the short term, we will maintain small-scale operations since we are limited in the number of experiments. But the ultimate goal is to make it like Pump.fun; when the token reaches a certain market cap, these experiments will be initiated, and we will be responsible for all operations. For instance, trading fees will be used to fund research, and this money will be sent to laboratories for research. Ultimately, experiments will move from worms and fruit flies to mice and then to human testing, and finally, we will be able to launch products.

Thread Guy: How do you get approval to sell these drugs?

Benjels: It depends on which country you are in, as each country has different regulatory processes. Basically, where you manufacture drugs, you must have a certification system like GMP. GMP stands for 'Good Manufacturing Practice', similar to how the FDA inspects the manufacturing site to see if it is compliant and has complete documentation. We will not do this ourselves; we will outsource it to professionals.

Thread Guy: Is this process difficult? Does it take many years?

Benjels: Yes, this process is quite complex and expensive, but we will not handle this; we will leave it to professionals. We will focus on building the token and data components, managing the data flow for these experiments.

New Opportunities in the DeSci Field

Thread Guy: I found many different names related to Bio during my search; what is that?

Benjels: Binance invested in Bio, which is essentially a DAO made up of multiple DAOs, each focusing on research in different fields. For example, VitaDao focuses on longevity research, HairDao focuses on hair loss research. You see, there is almost no funding in the hair loss field, so a group of cryptocurrency investors facing hair loss issues, holding a lot of cryptocurrency, want to create hair loss medication themselves.

Existing drugs on the market (like Rogaine and Finasteride) are generally ineffective. So, HairDAO is doing very well currently; their token price is also high, and they are developing multiple drugs. You should check them out; they are really leading the industry.

Additionally, there are DAOs focusing on women's health, DAOs focusing on cryotherapy, and so on; these are research areas that have not received funding support, but many people are interested in them, so they have started these DAOs to fund related research. We are very optimistic about the longevity field.

Binance invested in Bio, which is an index token across all these DAO tokens. If you think DeSci has great potential but are not interested in hair loss or longevity, you can choose to invest in the Bio token because Bio is essentially a liquidity token for these tokens. I hope this explanation helps you understand.

Thread Guy: So what is the focus in the longevity field?

Benjels: I think the core is to look at the U.S. spending on healthcare. U.S. medical spending accounts for 20% of GDP, which is massive. But if we look at lifespan, our lifespan is actually declining. We are spending more money but getting shorter lifespans.

So the question arises, why is that? You realize that the entire healthcare system is not designed to help you live longer, but to extract as much money as possible from you. This is the core of longevity theory. If you truly care about health or want to live longer, we must take matters into our own hands. So this is the foothold in the longevity field.

But we also believe that besides longevity, many other fields can be explored. We are starting with longevity because it's the largest market; after all, everyone is concerned about their lifespan.

Additionally, we are very excited about biohacking. This includes not only research on new drugs (nurotropic) but also the vast biohacking community on Reddit, where people experiment with various chemicals to see if different substances can improve their performance or health. You know, there are also methods like cold water therapy, where people are trying these extreme challenges.

Indeed, many people have tried to enhance physical performance through biohacking. Now, aside from fitness enthusiasts wanting to get stronger through workouts, many are also focused on triathlons and other projects looking to improve their running speed. This involves a category called 'performance-enhancing drugs' (PEDs), but there is still very little research in this area. So many people start self-experimenting, and some even look for drugs from China to test on themselves. Therefore, our idea is to conduct some animal experiments before we start self-experimentation.

Thread Guy: Would you recommend some private 'cognitive-enhancing' products?

Benjels: Yes, I particularly like Methylene Blue; it's not a 'drug', and also nicotine lozenges work well, and Modafinil is also a great choice.

Thread Guy: So what is Lion's Mane?

Benjels: Lion's Mane is a type of mushroom that helps neurons regenerate, which is beneficial for brain cells. So it's great, but you may not feel the effects immediately; the other drugs I mentioned will have more noticeable effects.

Thread Guy: When will you open a drug store on the Pump.Science website?

Benjels: In fact, I also feel that this hasn't happened for too long, which is a bit excessive. We expect to launch the store around the first quarter. Although everyone is very averse to roadmaps, this is real progress. We are not the kind of internet company that can innovate casually; we are doing physical operations. We are working with some real manufacturers to establish a supply chain while building an e-commerce platform. We also plan to introduce a token mechanism where tokens will be bought back and burned when products are sold, creating token deflation and thus increasing the price.

Thread Guy: Assuming you launch a certain drug, like nicotine (although we can't do this now), if I buy a lot of it, and the price skyrockets, then sales are also booming. As a token holder, should I expect the token price to rise because the intellectual property is now more valuable, or is it due to the effect of the buyback and burn mechanism? How does this process work?

Benjels: This question is indeed a bit complex; lawyers usually advise me to be cautious. I will try to explain it carefully. If token holders vote to approve a buyback and burn mechanism, then when the product is sold, the profits generated will be used to buy back and burn tokens, creating a deflationary effect that would increase the token price. So, if enough token holders vote to agree to this plan, the buyback and burn mechanism will take effect. This way, the value of the tokens can gradually increase. It is important to note that this mechanism cannot be set up initially, but if decisions are made through group voting, it can avoid some legal risks.

Thread Guy: If I want to learn about the 20 new drugs you are going to release, how do I find relevant research materials? For example, if I want to know the specifics about these 20 drugs, how can I find the related research and data?

Benjels: We will disclose their identities before the drugs are released, so you can do some research in advance. However, while we plan to release about 20 drugs, we are still gathering data from the lab. So it is uncertain whether all these drugs will be effective. However, we will publish information about compounds that are about to be tested and then begin to open a curve mechanism similar to 'Pump.fun', allowing the tokens to start trading. Once the market cap reaches the target, experiments will be initiated.

Thread Guy: Do you think I should try to launch a 'Thread Guy' themed drug, or research how to submit a drug?

Benjels: Of course, you can try! Even if you only have the idea of nicotine, you can start from there.

Thread Guy: Can you give us some specific advice on how to maximize the benefits from this opportunity? What are the directions of operation to focus on next?

Benjels: I can introduce Pump Science because I am currently working on this project. I think the most important point is that everyone is fascinated with AI right now; indeed, AI is cool, allowing interaction with automated systems, even enabling them to trade.

But honestly, science is the driving force behind social progress. While this sounds clichéd, we live in a physical world, and technological innovation can change a lot of things, especially in the medical field. When people look at cryptocurrencies, they often think of it as gambling, but we can actually change everything, particularly in large fields like medicine.

Thread Guy: How do scientists view this?

Benjels: Scientists' opinions vary widely; some scientists are very excited about this because we have funded many researchers who are very happy with this funding, as this money might be something they could never obtain through traditional channels.

On the other hand, some scientists are skeptical about this, as cryptocurrencies have a certain stigma in their eyes. So we have to try to change this perception; the goal is to produce real research results and develop meaningful products. If the scientific community is willing to accept it, that’s great; if not, that’s fine too. However, I believe attitudes are slowly changing.

Thread Guy: You mentioned that many 'Trap Science' people find you suspicious. How can I judge whether you or other DeSci platforms are suspicious?

Benjels: I suggest checking on-chain transaction records to see how funds are flowing. Are funds genuinely going into scientific research, rather than being wasted elsewhere? You can also pay attention to projects you care about and see how they are executing.

Now, people are less focused on past plans and more concerned with 'what have you done today'. For this cycle, I think everyone should have high expectations for all projects. If a platform always conceals progress, it likely has problems. If we conduct experiments transparently and showcase them in real-time, that shows we are serious and have invested funds. Our current approach is to publicly display the progress of all experiments to ensure funds are genuinely allocated to research.

Thread Guy: With so many new concepts happening simultaneously in the DeSci field, what should people pay attention to?

Benjels: If you care about living longer, about not dying, projects like Brian Johnson's, if you really hope to possibly live longer, then you must take action yourself. Your doctor won't come to save you, and hospitals won't save you. They will cure your diseases after you have paid a hefty fee, but they won't help you prevent them.

It's like this: if you like living and want to continue living tomorrow, feeling that life is interesting at 80, then you need to make some changes. If you want that choice, we have to make changes. So, we will do our best, but we need everyone's help. If you just want to live to 80 and pass away peacefully, that's fine too; but we are doing this for those who want to 'live forever.'