In this episode, we invited Eva, head of The Graph Foundation, to discuss the current state and future of The Graph and the broader Web3 ecosystem. We explored key topics such as AI integration, decentralized data, and how The Graph can expand its services for developers. We also touched on the challenges facing the Web3 developer community, the role of the GRT token, and the impact of decentralized data in combating misinformation and information bubbles.
The audio transcript is generated by GPT, so there may be some errors. Please listen to the full podcast:
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Eva introduces herself and The Graph
Ehan: Welcome to the Wu Says podcast. Today we are pleased to invite Eva, the director of The Graph Foundation, to explore the development and innovations of The Graph. Eva, welcome! Could you briefly introduce yourself and share with us the history of The Graph?
Eva: Hi, thank you very much for inviting me to the show. I am Eva, from Canada. My career started in management consulting, majoring in economics, and I have always enjoyed learning by solving business problems. For me, consulting work is like a boot camp for young people.
At that time, I was responsible for payment business projects at some large banks in the US and gradually got exposed to Ethereum and Web3. With a deeper understanding of cryptocurrency, I realized that this technology could be the foundation of banking in the future, but it was still in a very early stage at the time. So I decided to leave the consulting industry and join Web3, particularly the Ethereum community. Now, I have been working in this field for about six years, participating in multiple different projects.
Later, I found The Graph and thought it was a project worth long-term investment. Now I have worked at The Graph for over five years.
What is The Graph Foundation? What is your role in the foundation?
Ehan: Can you introduce The Graph Foundation and your role in the foundation?
Eva: Okay, The Graph is a decentralized ecosystem, or it can be said to be a decentralized network. Simply put, The Graph provides access services to Web3 data. We see it as the 'Google' of the blockchain world, where all data is indexed and available for query. So, whether you want to query on-chain data or build applications based on that data, you can easily do it through The Graph. We have a tool called 'subgraph,' which is a standardized API that allows developers to query data from any blockchain using GraphQL. This is how The Graph got started.
After the launch of the decentralized network, hundreds of indexing nodes began indexing data, and we also transitioned from a centralized service to a decentralized network. When the network went live, we simultaneously launched The Graph Foundation. I was one of the initial team members who launched the network, and there were only 16 of us at the time. We realized the need for an independent entity to drive the ecosystem's development, responsible for governance, funding, and growth projects. Therefore, the foundation has been leading the community's expansion, providing funding for different projects, and promoting the development of the entire ecosystem.
We will interact with the community to understand their needs on the tech stack. This includes community members with non-technical backgrounds, index node developers, and subgraph developers to ensure all aspects of the ecosystem can thrive. The Graph Foundation continuously focuses on governance, growth, and funding management while supporting the core development team. At the same time, we are also very focused on exploring the future needs of the Web3 ecosystem.
Subgraphs and The Graph toolkit help developers solve a core problem: how to get on-chain data for decentralized applications (dApps). The Graph simplifies this process through subgraphs. But now, our vision is expanding to broader Web3 issues. In addition to focusing on API and hosting services, we are also thinking about how to support developers more comprehensively. What other problems do Web3 and Web2 developers encounter when using blockchains?
We found that many developers, including our team, have become accustomed to building applications in the crypto space in a specific way, possibly not realizing that the technologies we build are not always suitable for the next wave of new developers. Therefore, our focus is on how to expand the vision of The Graph and Web3 to attract more developers into this field in a way that 'grows the pie.'
Ehan: For those unfamiliar with The Graph, how would you explain what it is and how its protocol works?
Eva: As I mentioned earlier, we like to call ourselves the 'Google of blockchain.' Explaining it this way, you can see us as an indexer and data provider — a machine that organizes and responds to queries in the background, providing the data you need. Anyone can build a user interface (UI) or front-end application on top of The Graph's data. If you want to create functionality similar to a Google search engine, that is entirely feasible.
Some have attempted to build ChatGPT-like projects on top of The Graph to better understand the dynamics of blockchain data through pilot programs. But if you just want to build a dApp, you can use The Graph directly to query on-chain data.
For example, the data displayed on Uniswap.org or other dApps is not directly extracted from the blockchain because retrieving data from the chain is actually quite complex. We provide a standardized intermediary layer that connects the front end of the application with its deployed smart contracts, allowing developers to easily access and use blockchain data.
What is the knowledge graph? How does it benefit Web3 applications?
Ehan: So, what is the knowledge graph? What specific benefits does it bring to Web3 applications?
Eva: As I mentioned earlier, The Graph is currently focused on expanding the set of problems we can solve. We started with subgraphs, primarily targeting developers and front-end applications, achieving product-market fit, but we also realize that the demand for blockchain data goes far beyond this. Whether for developers or analysts, processing blockchain data is very challenging.
However, the vision of the knowledge graph goes beyond single blockchain data. Think about the information you need in daily life — the vast majority is not crypto or Web3 data, but rather messages from friends, to-do lists, etc. — this information is not stored on the blockchain. The goal of the knowledge graph is to integrate data from Web3 and Web2, transcending transaction-event-driven blockchain information. These event data often only reflect processed transactions or passed votes and fail to capture deeper key data about users, wallets, or behaviors.
The knowledge graph aims to bring Web3 and Web2 data closer together. For example, imagine if your Web2 social information could interoperate with Web3 social applications. Our goal is to cover the entire realm of data, information, and knowledge, including blockchain data and user-generated content, such as social media posts, website updates, or research findings.
These meaningful data, or what we call 'knowledge,' are generated by establishing connections between this information. For example, tracking an identity and viewing all content associated with that identity, whether on-chain or off-chain, can help us create meaningful links between people and their on-chain behavior or decentralized finance (DeFi) activities. We hope that through The Graph, users can easily access and integrate these different types of data and information.
What is the role of the GRT token within The Graph network?
Ehan: Can you explain the role of the GRT token within The Graph network? How is it utilized within the ecosystem?
Eva: That's a good question. The GRT token was launched when the network started, as a utility token for work. Basically, anyone can stake GRT tokens, locking them up to earn rewards. By doing so, they contribute to the overall success of Web3.
The Graph sees itself as a bridge for contributors and builders in Web3 because we support multiple blockchains. For example, if you are a developer wanting to build on a new chain, like the Eva chain, and are unsure if that chain has a complete support ecosystem, The Graph is likely already providing support, making it easier for you to build applications. The positioning of GRT is to unite the entire Web3 ecosystem. The process of staking GRT not only helps provide critical data, information, and knowledge in Web3 but also contributes to network security, enhancing developers' confidence in data reliability.
In terms of staking, you can choose to be an index node, meaning running a specific validation node for The Graph, indexing data through The Graph software. As an index node, you can earn fees by providing data query services to clients and receive GRT rewards from the network.
Additionally, you can choose to stake as a delegator, a role that has lower hardware and technical requirements. Delegators can stake through the official website and stake tokens to a specific indexing node, enhancing that node's query capabilities. The staking mechanism is crucial, as it enhances the overall value of the network by improving the service capabilities of indexing nodes, and delegators can also earn some returns from it.
Which chains does The Graph currently support?
Ehan: Which chains does The Graph currently support?
Eva: We currently support over 50 chains, covering all major Layer 1 and Layer 2 chains, and even some emerging non-EVM chains. Our goal is to ensure that developers receive support throughout the development process.
Building applications in Web3 is still quite challenging for many reasons. Choosing which chain to build on is an important decision, as it will impact multiple subsequent aspects, such as available development tools and the ecosystem of that chain. We want to ensure that high-quality developers receive support regardless of which chain they choose, or even if they need to redeploy smart contracts to other chains. Familiar development tools like The Graph should be readily available to streamline their development process.
What new data services has The Graph launched? How do they enhance the protocol's capabilities?
Ehan: The Graph recently launched new data services. Can you describe what these services are? How do they enhance the capabilities of the protocol?
Eva: Okay, as we just mentioned, we support multiple chains from Ethereum to Optimism and Monad. We view the ecosystem of chains as part of the personalized experience for developers. Another way The Graph allows developers and users to achieve personalized experiences is that they can choose which data services they want to use or build.
The previously mentioned subgraphs are a key breakthrough for our product-market fit, helping Web3, especially Ethereum, to grow rapidly by providing high-quality tools for developers and hackathons.
Now, we see a broader user demand and more ways to extract data, which can be optimized for different use cases. For example, we have a team called StreamingFast that is developing substreams and Firehose. These tools complement subgraphs, as they serve different functions. Subgraphs are APIs, while substreams are raw data streams. In some cases, such as applications needing real-time data, developers may require streaming data to meet product needs. In these scenarios, they can combine the use of both substreams and subgraphs.
In addition, we have launched 'substream-driven subgraphs,' which combine substreams and subgraphs to significantly enhance the performance and efficiency of subgraph synchronization. Therefore, we can cross-use different tools within The Graph to meet various needs. Additionally, we are exploring other data access methods beyond subgraphs and substreams, which is where the knowledge graph plays a role. It focuses on the different needs of dApps when handling public data, private data, individual data, and on-chain data, helping to balance transparency and privacy. The knowledge graph aims to become a new data service that not only focuses on Web3 data but also integrates more meaningful information from Web2, providing a richer data experience by connecting data nodes from Web3 and Web2.
In addition to the knowledge graph and developer-focused use cases, we are also considering other users who need access to Web3 data. When The Graph first started, the Web3 ecosystem was still in its infancy — it still has a long way to go. At that time, we primarily focused on supporting developers in building smart contracts and applications.
Now, we see an increasing demand for business intelligence among analysts, business professionals, and even within companies. Therefore, users are not just developers, but also data scientists, analysts, and trend watchers. We are expanding use cases to support these users, including those with front-end or data science backgrounds who may not want to use GraphQL or Rust. We also ensure that non-technical or non-analytical users can use The Graph in ways that suit them and gain valuable insights.
Our goal of expanding data services is to ensure that all types of users can easily access The Graph and provide a variety of tools for them to choose from.
How does The Graph's core development team operate and collaborate?
Ehan: The Graph ecosystem includes core development teams. Can you explain how these teams operate and collaborate to drive decentralization?
Eva: We have drawn a lot of inspiration from the Ethereum community and other Web3 communities. I think the Ethereum community is a mature example that has made the whole ecosystem more successful by encouraging community contributions. The problem with relying on a single centralized team is that the number of people truly caring about what you do tends to be relatively small. Most companies will not attract that much attention unless employees hold shares.
In contrast, in decentralized networks and ecosystems, people tend to care about work to varying degrees based on their level of participation and contribution. The crypto network itself is a positive-sum game, aiming to create value for the entire ecosystem, not just capture profits for a single enterprise.
This shift in mindset is a significant distinction between Web3 and Web2 and is at the core of our philosophy. When The Graph network launched, we had an initial team and foundation. But we quickly realized that many of the goals on the roadmap were very ambitious and that simply scaling one or two teams was not enough, as we needed expertise and skills from various fields. Sometimes, launching an idea or issuing an RFP (Request for Proposal) can attract teams to work on a project together more effectively than hiring individually.
Therefore, we adopted a multi-core developer funding model and established multiple core development teams. We found that collaboration among different teams on the same issue is more beneficial than competing or working in isolation. When teams come together to share research and development results, it creates a more productive environment.
Of course, we also face coordination challenges, much like Ethereum. Coordinating in public spaces and among different teams is not easy, but we have built a strong funding program and community. We hold core developer meetings monthly and have indexer meetings every two weeks, where anyone with questions about indexing updates can participate.
Overall, this decentralized approach is beneficial for everyone building on The Graph and for the entire ecosystem. It allows groups from different fields to collaborate together, increasing the chances of overall network success. We are not limited to a narrow business model or user type but ensure that the whole community can align with the vision and contribute actively.
How is The Graph integrating AI? What impact does this have on decentralized data?
Ehan: The topic of The Graph's involvement in AI has been receiving much attention lately. Can you explain how The Graph integrates AI? What potential impacts does this have on decentralized data?
Eva: Yes, it is indeed exciting. Earlier this year, around the first quarter, we published a white paper outlining The Graph's potential opportunities in AI. We have already been utilizing AI internally for modeling and community services, but the focus of this white paper is on how to provide AI services more broadly. We have identified two main application directions: inference services and agent services.
Overall, The Graph itself already has an interesting network flow and incentive structure, making operating or training AI models just a slight extension of the work existing indexers do. Indexers have already synchronized nodes, cached data needed for queries, and completed most of the foundational work for training AI models. This unique positioning means that while many teams revolve entirely around AI, for us, AI is just one part of our larger data service suite. We hope that any user coming to The Graph can meet all their data needs, including those related to AI.
After releasing the white paper, we started some experiments and realized that the market was not yet fully mature. Although many AI blockchain projects and decentralized AI initiatives are emerging, we are still taking time to find the best use cases and implementation methods. Since we already have other data services, AI can strongly support these services, especially the knowledge graph.
Currently, we are still in the exploratory phase, but we have already seen market demand for modular and AI-enhanced blockchain data access methods. We are also trying to understand the long-term needs at the intersection of Web3 and AI, not just traditional AI use cases flourishing in the West and East. Our focus is on how AI can provide unique support for Web3 and decentralized data needs.
Are there any recent developments or announcements from The Graph that excite you?
Ehan: Besides AI, what other recent developments or announcements from The Graph excite you about the future?
Eva: We haven't released any major announcements recently because, to be honest, we've been focused on our work. But we are indeed brewing some interesting things. As mentioned earlier, we are starting to look at developers more comprehensively, viewing them as users rather than just focusing on the API or data access layer. We are considering providing more comprehensive solutions, such as streaming data extraction frameworks. While we have already provided great tools for developers, we hope to further expand this support.
One major issue we see is that the Web3 developer ecosystem is still relatively niche. For those already working in the field, the ecosystem is indeed growing, but compared to the number of Web2 developers, the talent pool is still insufficient, considering we need developers globally to realize the vision of Web3.
Right now, we are mainly thinking about how to solve this problem. In the past, our focus was on helping developers who are already in Web3, providing them with data and tools to support them in building applications. This is the reason for the birth of subgraphs, and it is also the core value of The Graph.
However, we are redefining this question now: how can we attract more developers into Web3? If you have talked to Web2 developers, most have heard of cryptocurrencies, but many have not really engaged. They are still going about their daily work, not participating in crypto activities, not attending hackathons, and even not taking the time to learn Solidity. There is some psychological barrier that limits the overall potential of the Web3 ecosystem.
The Graph is very focused on solving this problem because for us, subgraphs are just part of a larger challenge — we are concerned with how to make it easy for anyone to build applications on blockchain and Web3, creating decentralized, censorship-resistant, and meaningful projects. We want to start building more tools and infrastructure that support the full journey of developers, not just hosting and data access.
How do people participate in The Graph?
Ehan: What is the best way for those who want to contribute to The Graph to get involved?
Eva: I suggest first visiting thegraph.com to explore different ways to participate based on whether you are a developer. If you are a developer, you can start with the documentation and products. We provide resources for over 50 chains, including subgraphs, substreams, and Firehose, for developers to access and build.
If you wish to participate directly in the network, you can learn about the roles of indexers or delegators on thegraph.com. There are multiple interfaces within the ecosystem that support delegating operations, and The Graph's website is one of them.
If you are interested in getting more involved in the community, we offer funding programs and community manager support. We will also soon relaunch the Advocates Program, which was paused for adjustment in the summer, and will share more related information before the end of the year.
For non-technical users, there are also many ways to participate. You can volunteer to assist with booth work during hackathons or events, or participate in community calls. We continually create new opportunities for everyone, allowing participation in testing new features, organizing information, and assisting in the development of knowledge graphs and other data services. As these new services roll out, we expect there will be many exciting activities in the community.
What is Horizon? How does it compare to other similar projects on the market?
Ehan: Can you explain Horizon? How do you compare this plan with others on the market?
Eva: Horizon is essentially the 2.0 version of The Graph protocol. We have learned a lot from past experiences, including the usage patterns of indexers, what architectures are more capital efficient, and what areas can still be improved. As the ways people interact with the protocol continue to diversify, we find that a more modular approach is becoming increasingly important, and Horizon is designed as a solution to meet these evolving needs.
The goal of Horizon is to meet the needs of different types of data consumers and data providers. For example, if you are a data provider looking to build a new data service, such as a unique API different from existing APIs, we want you to be able to provide that data service on The Graph. It can be said that The Graph is becoming a marketplace for data services.
So far, the core development team — those who work closely with the protocol daily — has been responsible for building these data services. But we believe that these tools should be open to the world to meet the diverse needs of different users, as the needs of data consumers vary, and the ways they consume data and information are also different. Indexers also have the right to choose freely and can provide any data service they wish. Horizon is precisely designed to realize this broader ecosystem vision.
What concerns do you have about the direction of Web3? How can the community improve?
Ehan: As a deep participant in the Web3 space, what concerns do you have about the direction of this field? In what areas do you think the Web3 community can improve?
Eva: This is a difficult question to answer. I think the idea of 'growing the pie' that we mentioned earlier is indeed what we should focus on most. There is a lot of enthusiasm regarding ETFs and more people gaining financial access to Ethereum and Bitcoin, which is indeed a milestone, but it hasn’t had as profound an impact as we expected, at least in attracting ordinary people — those we hope to empower through Web3 with more control over their lives, funds, and data may not necessarily be the groups that previously found it difficult to access Bitcoin and Ethereum.
I think we still have a lot of work to do to attract ordinary users to participate in Web3. This is not just about late-night discussions with friends about 'why Ethereum is the best' (though such discussions do happen, and many have joined the field because of them).
What we need now are some mature tools and convenient entry points to enable highly skilled professionals, such as those in banking, engineering, or the Web2 and AI fields, to smoothly transition to Web3. We need to reflect honestly on ourselves: if a quality contributor intends to dedicate their career to this ecosystem, how can we make them feel safe and find meaning in it?
This might mean better development tools, more comprehensive documentation and guides. We even need to rethink how some applications are built. For example, when using MetaMask or other applications, users still need to manually switch networks or bridge tokens across networks. These barriers indeed make it difficult to participate. Imagine telling a Web2 developer: 'Come to Ethereum, first buy this token, then you need to bridge it to another place.' That feels complex and confusing, resulting in us losing many potential participants.
So, I think the most important thing right now is to focus on 'growing the pie' in the Web3 fields we are interested in, regardless of the direction. This is the key to pushing the entire field forward.
How do Web3 and decentralized data help solve misinformation and information bubble issues?
Ehan: The US is about to enter another election cycle. The election of Donald Trump once surprised many, partly due to the information bubble on Web2 platforms. How do you think Web3, especially decentralized data, can help address these issues and curb misinformation?
Eva: That's a very good question, but also complex, especially since I'm not American. While I've been following this election, I lack that visceral experience to deeply feel the direct impact of such elections on life. However, I do believe we are at a critical moment. This year, there are over 30 federal elections globally, with more than 100 elections in total, which is a very important milestone for democracy, as people are voicing their concerns on issues they care about.
I think when voting, everyone needs to be aware of the various trade-offs behind it, whether in the US or elsewhere. We are at a critical point of technological transformation — technologies that empower individuals, such as AI and cryptocurrencies, are becoming increasingly powerful and widespread. At the same time, we are also seeing a resurgence of certain authoritarian regimes globally, which seems to have been suppressed by liberal trends over the past few decades. As people gain more freedom, some in power may try to regain control, which is somewhat understandable.
When voting, everyone should ask themselves: what is most important to me and the future of my descendants? This is not about focusing on a single issue but more realistically examining past elections and regimes, thinking about what kind of future world you want. At this pivotal moment of technological transformation, it is especially important to ensure that the leaders we elect do not hinder the future we are building together.
Decentralized data can help address misinformation through more transparent information flows and diversified sources of information. The decentralized technology of Web3 can prevent information from being controlled by a single platform, allowing people to access a wider range of unaltered data. This helps break information bubbles, enabling everyone to gain a more comprehensive perspective when making important decisions.
In summary, Web3 is not just about finance and technology; it also has the potential to address social issues in a more democratic way, helping people better understand and engage with the world. This is also the driving force behind our continuous push for The Graph and Web3.
