Original interview: The Thread Guy; Guest: Benjels, co-founder of pump.science and member of molecule; Original translation: zhouzhou, BlockBeats

Editor's note: This interview invited Benjels, co-founder of pump.science. The support of CZ and Vitalik brought a lot of heat to desci at the Bangkok event. The interview discussed the innovation brought by DeSci and the future development direction, and mentioned the practical significance of promoting the development of medical and longevity technologies by raising experimental funds through token transactions. At the same time, Benjels also brought new Alpha information, saying that pump.science will launch nearly 20 new experimental tokens around Christmas.

The following is the original content (for easier reading and understanding, the original content has been reorganized):

About Pump.Science

Thread Guy: Can you briefly introduce yourself and this project (pump.science)?

Benjels: I am a scientist and also a "leek". What makes me unhappy is that there is no way to take care of both identities in the market. For example, you can trade stocks of biotech companies, but their data release cycle may take months, lacking the kind of real-time updates and continuity that can be speculated at any time. Sports betting is different, you can bet on the dynamics of the game in real time. There is no such model in the field of science, so we want to create such a "game" for the field of science.

Thread Guy: Sounds interesting. How does it work?

Benjels: Specifically, our team started by making compounds into NFTs, but then realized that people actually care more about "fungible tokens." NFTs have limited appeal, and most people prefer to own part of the entire asset. So we turned to tokenizing the intellectual property rights of drug compounds.

Thread Guy: Is it to split the intellectual property into tokens on the chain?

Benjels: Exactly. We represent the intellectual property of a compound in the form of a token, and these tokens can be traded. Instead of buying a biotech company's stock, you have to own all the drugs in the company, now you can choose to invest in a single drug.

Thread Guy: Why hasn't anyone done this before?

Benjels: Mainly because blockchain and cryptography are relatively new and the scientific community generally moves slowly. In addition, this involves complex legal issues and we spent a lot of money on lawyers to ensure that everything is legal.

Thread Guy: Where can I purchase the intellectual property rights for this drug?

Benjels: You need to contact the pharmaceutical company directly to ask if you can buy the intellectual property, and then you need to involve lawyers and thousands of dollars in fees, which is very expensive because legal issues require lawyers to intervene. What we are doing now is as simple as sending tokens. Instead of writing a complicated contract for IP licensing, our solution is to send a token directly, which is how we understand licensing.

Thread Guy: But hypothetically, could the intellectual property rights to nicotine be purchased under certain circumstances?

Benjels: Nicotine is naturally occurring and cannot be patented. But if you combine nicotine with other substances, such as caffeine, this combination can be patented. What we do is tokenize these patents or data and then test whether they are effective.

In simple terms, you can think of it like this: for example, we test compounds on animals to extend lifespan. One area that particularly interests me is "nurotropics," which is basically anything that helps the brain function more efficiently. For example, nicotine is a nootropic, caffeine is also a nootropic, and there are actually many similar compounds that can help improve brain function. We can also study it through animal testing, such as using different rat experiments to verify whether a certain substance can help rats think better.

But in general, research like nootropics is something we can get involved in, but at present, "extending life span" is the easiest area to study, because everyone will age, and the result of "living or dying" is the easiest to understand. Therefore, we can use this data to attract investors.

Thread Guy: So the process you describe sounds like it required overcoming significant institutional hurdles to finally launch it on Pump.fun, tell us about that process.

Benjels: We have launched two tokens, Rif (rifamycin) and Uro (urolithin). Rif’s market value was close to $2.5 million. Collectively, the trading volume of these tokens has exceeded $1 billion since their launch. The corresponding compounds behind these tokens can be used to develop supplements and benefit from sales or patent licensing in the future. And to attract more people to invest, we need to develop a set of data that proves the effectiveness of these compounds, such as significantly extending lifespan in animal tests.

After RIF and URO, when will the new coin be released?

Thread Guy: You already have two tokens, so when do you decide to launch the next one? How can we seize the early opportunity of the next one? Or should we buy the existing tokens? What are your thoughts on this?

Benjels: The new tokens will probably be launched during Christmas. The first token is called Rif, so we will have "Rif Christmas". We plan to launch 1 to 2 tokens every day for about 10 days. One thing that needs to be understood is that we are limited by the real world. The labs we work with have limited resources, such as equipment and the number of animals for experiments. If we open up everything like Pump.fun and allow everyone to submit experiment requests, our experimental capabilities will be far behind. So we need to keep the operation small at the beginning. The goal is to gradually scale up, and eventually anyone can submit experiments, just like Pump.fun has created a craze.

But we will start with about 20 tokens and gradually show their development path, including tokens like Rif and uro, and eventually we hope to advance to the human testing stage and even develop into a product market where these different supplements are sold. As for how to seize early opportunities, I can reveal some "insider" that we may launch 20 tokens during Christmas.

Thread Guy: I think most token enthusiasts generally think that the first token will be the most valuable. But the mechanism you describe is more like "survival of the fittest", seeing which drug performs best. Do you think this dynamic will change? Any advice or guidance for people who want to get involved and learn more about the DeSci project?

Benjels: I would recommend looking at some metrics. The cool thing about science is that data is generated in real time. It sounds a bit cumbersome, but the compounds we submit already exist and you can look up the relevant information online, and there may be relevant scientific papers. Our goal is to turn geeks into scientists and scientists into geeks.

What's special about this project is that it's very relevant to the real world, not just a "meme," these could be potential life-extending drugs. You can learn about these compounds online, and we're also generating data to provide early indicators of whether they're effective. For example, we're doing two experiments right now, both with fruit flies. We're not only recording whether the fruit flies are alive or dead, but we're also monitoring how fast and how far they move.

In addition, our goal is to combine the current AI craze and create an AI robot that trades based on this data. We don't mind whether it is a human or an AI that is trading. We realize that the future may be an era of AI-led trading, especially in the field of science. You can develop your own AI agent to trade for you using the data we provide. This is our vision for the future, especially in science, which is almost impossible to achieve in the real world, so we have to "gamify" the process.

Thread Guy: If there are two tokens now and there will be 20 tokens in the future, will the best performing token be associated with the best test results?

Benjels: I won’t comment directly on the price, but the market will decide the outcome. However, it can be said that the experimental data may indeed have an impact on the performance of the token.

How to monetize drug IP?

Thread Guy: Are you planning to sell these drugs to drug companies?

Benjels: No, we will sell directly to consumers and provide clear data to support its effectiveness. When you buy a supplement now, it is difficult to know whether it will work for you or how effective it will be. There is no dedicated site to test the effects of these supplements one by one.

We are funding research through gamification and turning that data into marketing, where we can say, “This supplement extended the lifespan of fruit flies by 50% and made them run faster and walk farther.” No one has come up with similar research or conclusions. We hope to turn speculation into research funding while producing products that actually extend lifespan.

Thread Guy: Considering you’ve been working in this space for two years, can you talk about how you got started and what your team is like?

Benjels: I have been working on DeSci for two years, and Pump Science was launched two weeks ago before the Breakpoint conference. We launched two tokens during the conference and have been working hard to develop the project since then.

Thread Guy: So did people have any doubts about your project? Especially when you first mentioned "science", what was their reaction?

Benjels: At first, everyone thought it was unreliable. When people talk about "science", they often think it means those boring experiments and rigid things. But we want to make science no longer boring. You know, many people think science class is boring in high school. We hope to change this view.

Suppose you take the crazy drive of Degens (cryptocurrency geeks) and channel it into science, so that these people can get involved and do some interesting experiments that will ultimately help us live longer. That's the core of our project. It's actually an incentive theory similar to Polymarket: as long as the right incentives are set, people will find the right answer.

Thread Guy: The concept of "Polymarket" you mentioned is really interesting. Using incentive mechanisms to find the right answers and applying this mechanism to science is really a crazy idea. This is also a big signal. This may be the path that the next "Elon" is taking!

Benjels: I think we want to bring real longevity experts into this project and impress them with the data we generate. But we don't want to start out by saying, "Look at this crazy casino game," because then they'll just walk away.

Most of the people I admire are in the field of longevity, and we will impress them with research data and get them to pay attention. Then they will wonder: "Who funded these experiments?" Then we will tell them that it is a speculative market and this research method has never been seen before.

Thread Guy: Will this data be used by other researchers or will it be proprietary?

Benjels: We are the only one who generates this data, but this is the pain point in the field of longevity. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not consider aging to be a disease. If you want to develop a drug, you have to target cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc., because these are considered "diagnoses."

But aging is not considered a disease or a diagnosis, so you can’t develop drugs that simply extend lifespan. This results in the public market not funding this type of research, and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) won’t invest in this area. VCs won’t fund it either, because insurance won’t pay for supplements, only disease drugs can be covered by insurance. So the sources of research funding are limited.

I think the more you get into healthcare, the more you see the truth, which is that it's like (The Matrix), no one is there to help you stay healthy. Everyone wants you to get sick and then give you a super expensive drug to cure you, which is really a bit scary.

But this is an opportunity to change: instead of relying on VCs or the government, we can fund our own research. These funds may come from random "speculators".

Thread Guy: Obviously I see value in a lot of coins, and I do wish there was a way for me to invest in an index of these things, or if there was a place to invest centrally, whether it's something like the DAO or something like that.

Benjels: I'll tell you something insider. I had dinner with Shaw and Bao last Wednesday. They are planning to set up a DAO fund. Although the details have not been finalized, we are moving forward and may take action soon. We will announce it on Twitter when the time comes. But there is a problem here: we don't want to both create the market and fund the tokens on the market. That seems too problematic, so we are looking for an external team to operate the fund.

Thread Guy: How do you submit a drug? For example, can Thread Guy submit a compound?

Benjels: Of course! If you have an idea, you can submit an application on our website. However, about 90% of the submissions currently involve illegal or controlled substances, such as THC and other drugs. Unfortunately, we cannot process these compounds because the laboratory needs a license.

Thread Guy: What kind of projects can be submitted? Is there any research that has not been done in the world?

Benjels: You may think you have done all the research, but you haven't. The core of science is to explore questions that have not been studied yet and find answers. That's what science is about, to find the important questions that drive human progress.

So what we're thinking is, right now we have a relatively simple form where you just submit your idea, and it's on our website. If you go to pump.science, it basically says "Submit a new experiment," and you can submit anything you want, and we're collecting good ideas and then bringing these people in, and they become developers, what we call "drug developers."

They will submit their experiments and own the intellectual property. So in the short term we're going to keep it small because we have a certain limit on the number of experiments we can do. But the ultimate goal is to make it like pump.fun, where when the token reaches a certain market cap, these experiments will be launched and we will be responsible for all the operations. For example, transaction fees will be used to fund research, and the funds will be sent to the lab to conduct research. Eventually, the experiments will be tested on earthworms, fruit flies, mice, and humans, and then we can launch a product.

Thread Guy: So how did you get approval to sell these drugs?

Benjels: It depends on which country you are in. Each country has different regulatory processes. Basically, where you manufacture the drug, you have to have a certification system like GMP. GMP is "Good Manufacturing Practice", which is like the FDA will inspect the manufacturing site to see if it is compliant and if there is complete documentation. We don't do this ourselves, we outsource it to professionals.

Thread Guy: Is this a difficult process? Will it take years?

Benjels：Yes, this process is complicated and expensive, but we will not do this part, we will leave it to professionals. We will focus on building tokens and data components, doing data flow and management for these experiments.

New opportunities in the field of DeSci

Thread Guy: When I looked it up I noticed there were a lot of different names associated with Bio, what is that?

Benjels: Binance invested in Bio, which is basically a DAO composed of multiple DAOs, each of which focuses on different areas of research. For example, VitaDao focuses on longevity research, and HairDao focuses on hair loss research. You see, there is almost no investment in the field of hair loss, so there is a group of cryptocurrency investors who are facing the problem of hair loss and have a lot of cryptocurrency in their hands, and they want to make their own hair loss drugs.

The existing drugs on the market (such as Rogaine and Fipxib) are only moderately effective. So HairDAO is doing very well, their token is very expensive, and they are developing multiple drugs. You should check them out, they are really leading the industry.

There is also a DAO focused on women's health, a DAO focused on cryotherapy, etc. These are all areas of research that are not funded, but there are a lot of people interested in these areas, so they started these DAOs to fund related research. We are very bullish on the longevity field.

Binance invested in Bio, which is an index token across all these DAO tokens. If you think DeSci is promising but don't care about hair loss or longevity, you can choose to invest in Bio tokens because Bio is basically a liquidity token for these tokens. Hopefully, this explanation makes sense to you.

Thread Guy: So what’s the focus in the longevity field?

Benjels: I think the key is to look at the amount of money that the United States spends on health care. The United States spends 20% of its GDP on health care, which is huge. But if you look at life expectancy, our life expectancy is actually decreasing. We spend more money, but we get a shorter life expectancy.

So the question is, why is this happening? You realize that the entire healthcare system is not designed to make you live longer, but to squeeze as much money out of you as possible. That's the core of the longevity theory. If you really care about health or want to live longer, then we have to do it ourselves. So this is where the longevity field comes in.

But we also believe that there are many other areas that can be expanded in addition to longevity. We are starting with longevity now because this is the largest market, after all, everyone cares about their lifespan.

We're also really excited about biohacking. Not only is this about nurotropics, but there's also this huge biohacking community on Reddit, where people are experimenting with taking different chemicals to see if different chemicals can improve their performance or health. You know, there's also things like cold water therapy, where people are trying these extreme challenges.

There have been a lot of attempts to enhance performance through biohacking. Now, in addition to fitness enthusiasts who want to get stronger through exercise, there are also many people who focus on triathlons and other events and want to increase their running speed. This involves a field called "performance enhancing drugs" (PEDs), but there is still little research in this area. So many people started self-experimenting, and some people even found some drugs from China to test themselves. So our idea is that before we start self-experimenting, we should do some animal experiments.

Thread Guy: Are there any private nurotropics products you would recommend?

Benjels: Yes, my favorite is Methylene Blue, which is not a "drug", and nicotine lozenges, which are very effective, and Modafinil, which is also a great choice.

Thread Guy: What is Lion’s Mane?

Benjels: Lion's Mane is a mushroom that helps neurons regenerate, which is good for brain cells. So it's great, but you may not feel the effects right away, like these other drugs I mentioned.

Thread Guy: When will you launch the drug store on the Pump.Science website?

Benjels: Actually, I think it's a bit too late for this to happen. We expect to launch the store in the first quarter. Although everyone is disgusted with the roadmap, this is real progress. We are not an Internet company that can innovate casually, but a physical operation. We are working with some actual manufacturers to establish a supply chain and build an e-commerce platform. We also plan to introduce a token mechanism. When the product is sold, the token will be bought back and destroyed, which will cause deflation of the token and increase the price.

Thread Guy: Let's say you launch a drug, like nicotine (although we can't do this right now), and if I buy a lot of it, the price goes up like crazy, and then sales are also very hot. As a token holder, do you expect the token price to go up because the intellectual property is now more valuable, or because of the buyback and burn mechanism? What is this process like?

Benjels: This is a bit complicated, and lawyers usually ask me to be careful about what I say. I will try to explain it carefully. If the token holders vote to buy back and burn, then when the product is sold, the profits generated will be used to buy back and burn the tokens, which will create a deflationary effect, so the price of the token will increase. So, if enough token holders vote to agree to this plan, the buyback and burn mechanism will take effect. In this way, the value of the token can be gradually increased. It should be noted that this mechanism cannot be set up at the beginning, but if the decision is made through group voting, some legal risks can be avoided.

Thread Guy: If I want to know about the 20 new drugs you are going to release, how can I find the relevant research information? For example, if I want to know the specific information about these 20 drugs, how can I find the relevant research and data?

Benjels: We will publicly identify the drugs before they are released so that you can do some research in advance. However, although we plan to release about 20 drugs, we are still getting data from the lab. So it is not certain whether all of these drugs will be effective. However, we will release information about the compounds that are about to be tested, and then start to open a curve mechanism similar to "Pump.fun" and the token will start trading. Once the market value reaches the target, the experiment will start.

Thread Guy: Do you think I should try to launch a "Thread Guy" themed drug, or research how to submit a drug?

Benjels: Of course you can try it. Even if you only have the idea of ​​nicotine in your hand, you can start with this.

Thread Guy: Can you give us some specific suggestions on how to get the most out of this opportunity? What are the next steps and points worth paying attention to?

Benjels: I can introduce Pump Science because I am working on this project now. I think the most important point is that everyone is fascinated by AI now. Indeed, AI is cool and can interact with automated systems and even let them trade.

But let's be honest, science is the driving force of social progress. Although it's a bit cliché, we live in a physical world, and technological innovation can change a lot of things, such as the medical industry. When people look at cryptocurrency, they often think it's just gambling, but in fact we can really change everything, especially in a big field like medicine.

Thread Guy: So what do scientists think about this?

Benjels: Scientists have very different opinions. Some scientists are very excited about this because we have already funded a lot of researchers and they are very happy about this funding because this is money they may never get through traditional channels.

On the other hand, there are some scientists who are skeptical about this because cryptocurrencies have a certain stigma in their eyes. So we have to try to change this view, and the goal is to make real research results and develop meaningful products. If the scientific community is willing to accept it, that's great, if not, that's fine too. But I think attitudes are slowly changing.

Thread Guy: You mentioned that a lot of people in Trap Science find you suspicious. So how can I tell if you or other DeSci platforms are suspicious?

Benjels: I suggest you check the on-chain transaction records to see how the funds flow. Whether the funds are really invested in scientific research rather than wasted elsewhere. You can also follow the projects you care about to see how they are performing.

Now, everyone is less concerned about past plans and more concerned about "what you did today". For this cycle, I think everyone should keep high expectations for all projects. If a platform always hides progress, it is likely that there is a problem. If we conduct experiments openly and transparently and show them in real time, it means that we are doing things seriously and investing money. Our current practice is to publicly display the progress of all experiments to ensure that the funds are really used for research.

Thread Guy: There are so many new concepts happening in the DeSci field at the same time. Which ones should people be most concerned about?

Benjels: If you care about living longer, if you care about not dying, projects like Brian Johnson's, if you really want to have the possibility of living longer, you have to do it yourself. Your doctor is not going to save you, the hospital is not going to save you. They will cure your disease after you pay a lot of money, but they will not help you prevent it.

It's like, if you like living, if you want to live tomorrow, and if you want to be 80 and still find life interesting, then you have to change something. If you want that option, we have to change. So, we're going to do our best, but we need your help. If you just want to live to 80 and die peacefully, that's fine, but we do it for those who want to "live forever."

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