The value of Honeycombs has increased 12 times in the past 12 months, becoming the best-performing asset across the entire NFT sector.
Organized & Compiled: Deep Tide TechFlow
Guest: Janitooor, co-founder of Honey Jar
Hosts: DeFi Dave & kiet
Podcast source: Flywheel DeFi
Original title: Cybernetics and Redefining Culture w/ Jani - Flywheel
Release date: November 7, 2024
Introduction and Background
At the beginning of the podcast, the host mentioned that there is a misconception of short-term thinking in the cryptocurrency field, especially regarding new cycles and attention spans. He believes that this mindset is incorrect and should be approached like a gardener, with a long-term vision.
This episode's guest is Jani, whom DeFi Dave refers to as a 'legend', mentioning he is the co-founder of Honey Jar and has participated in the development of multiple projects. The podcast will delve into the feedback loops of network cybernetics, cultural phenomena, and what makes certain groups (like Cults) survive.
Jani's background and views on Cults
Jani reviewed his ten years of experience in the cryptocurrency field, mentioning that he was involved before the release of the Ethereum white paper. He emphasized that in this rapidly evolving industry, we are creating the future in real-time. He believes that understanding the concept of 'Cults' requires a deep exploration from the narrative and authoritative figures' perspectives, while also noting that Cults often accompany isolationism.
Understanding community phenomena in the context of cryptocurrencies
Jani mentioned that the Latin root of the term 'Cults' is closely related to 'cultivation', a connection that makes him pay more attention to drawing inspiration from nature, emphasizing the importance of sustainable systems and practices. He pointed out that in recent years, some personality-centered 'Cults' have emerged in the cryptocurrency realm, but the results have not been ideal, such as the collapse of certain projects.
However, he also emphasized that from the perspective of the overall ecosystem, cryptocurrencies can be seen as a natural system possessing self-sustaining characteristics. He believes that while some individuals or projects may fail, there are still many successful examples within the overall ecosystem.
Jani's thinking style is relatively free and chaotic, and he encourages the host and audience to interrupt him at any time to delve deeper into the points he raises.
Maintaining a fresh perspective
DeFi Dave mentioned that many people in the cryptocurrency field easily fall into comfort zones, becoming dogmatic and unable to adapt to changes in the times. He asked Jani how he refreshes his perspective to identify new communities or worthwhile 'Cults'.
Jani responded that maintaining anonymity is a practice. He has often started from scratch to establish new identities, avoiding confusion with past identities. This practice helps him maintain a fresh perspective. DeFi Dave agreed, acknowledging that this is difficult but also expressing pride in what he has created while hoping to maintain some sense of separation.
Deep participation and diversity of the community
Jani further explained that maintaining multiple identities across different communities allows him to engage better, observing the dynamics and interaction modes of each community. He mentioned that modern social media algorithms place everyone in different social circles within the 'town square', thus by maintaining different areas of interest, he can see the diversity of the internet and the practices and rituals of different communities.
He also pointed out that the rituals and interaction modes of the community are key to understanding the phenomenon of 'Cults'. How new members are invited or excluded are aspects worth paying attention to. He emphasized that participating in various community interactions helps him maintain a fresh perspective, understanding the unique culture and dynamics of each community.
The application of cybernetics and feedback loops in the crypto space
Feedback loops and the basics of cybernetics
DeFi Dave proposed that feedback loops are an important concept in the crypto field, emphasizing the need for 'AB testing' in different communities, observing people's responses, and taking action based on feedback. He mentioned cybernetics, the study of systems and their feedback mechanisms, wanting to understand how it drives the development of cryptocurrencies.
Jani explained that cybernetics is the study of system control mechanisms and feedback loops. He believes that the emergence of Bitcoin is a significant milestone as it creates a digital system capable of having an impact in the real world, especially in terms of power consumption. Bitcoin operates like a self-enclosed 'box', where the tokens are endogenous and rely on external world power and computational capabilities.
The evolution from Bitcoin to new chains
Jani further elaborated that throughout the evolution of the crypto industry, all innovations seek new mechanisms that can drive action in the real world. He pointed out that understanding these mechanisms is crucial for promoting community growth. He noted that new blockchain technologies are always trying to find new levers to drive actions in the external world.
When discussing Berachain, Jani mentioned that he saw some thoughts related to natural systems and cybernetics in its white paper, especially regarding the concept of flow control. He explained that flow control is related to token issuance mechanisms, particularly in how to attract users to participate and utilize power.
Application of Flow Control
DeFi Dave expressed curiosity about the concept of flow control, asking if it relates to 'liquidity proof'.
Jani further explained the basic concept of flow control and how various mechanisms in different blockchains can incentivize user participation. He emphasized that a cybernetic perspective can help us understand how these mechanisms operate in the real world, driving the evolution of the entire crypto ecosystem.
Optimizing airdrop mechanisms and incentivizing high-value behavior
The current state and challenges of airdrops
DeFi Dave mentioned that the current airdrop mechanism often encourages low-value behaviors and asked how to improve airdrops to incentivize higher-value behaviors. He noted that airdrops can be seen as a feedback loop and wanted to understand how to enhance value within this mechanism.
Jani agreed, believing that when driving user participation and behavior, focusing on overall value creation is crucial. He pointed out that traditionally, Total Value Locked (TVL) is often overemphasized, while what users truly care about are the executable operations on-chain (TTD, i.e., 'Things To Do').
From value locking to operability
Jani further explained that users do not care about the complexity behind the system; they are more concerned with whether they can smoothly complete the desired operations. He gave an example, stating that ordinary people do not care how a toaster works, as long as it functions properly. Therefore, in the digital realm, users are more focused on the functionality of the application layer rather than the underlying blockchain technology.
He emphasized that the future focus should be on providing users with more meaningful operations and experiences, rather than merely increasing locked value. Whether in games, social platforms, or financial services, the key is to provide users with rich functionalities and opportunities for interaction.
Methods to incentivize high-value behavior
To incentivize high-value behavior, Jani suggested focusing on how to design systems that allow users to easily find and engage in various activities. He believes that airdrop mechanisms should align with users' actual needs and behaviors, encouraging them to participate in more valuable operations rather than merely pursuing short-term benefits.
This approach not only enhances user participation but also drives the healthy development of the entire ecosystem. He emphasized that understanding the needs of different stakeholders, including financial systems and consumers, is key to designing effective airdrop mechanisms.
Fully invested and utilizing Bong Beras
The background and value of Bong Beras
DeFi Dave asked how Bong Beras, as an NFT project, creates meaningful activities and value in the experience of Bera Chain.
Jani shared his experiences in data analysis and traffic background, emphasizing observations and participation during the DeFi summer.
He mentioned that Bong Beras is an interesting form of NFT with a rebase mechanism, meaning each generation will have different supply amounts and characteristics. He explained that the initial supply was very limited, with only 101 accidentally generated NFTs and six honor editions. This mechanism not only attracted users' attention but also incentivized them to engage in deeper interactions.
The Rebse mechanism of NFTs
The rebase mechanism of Bong Beras allows owners to gain more tokens by holding one NFT. For example, a user holding a Bong Bera will receive additional NFTs in the next generation, which encourages users to actively participate and hold these digital assets. Jani pointed out that the design inspiration partly comes from the popular Olympus-style rebase narrative at that time.
He emphasized that owning Bong Beras is not just about holding an asset, but participating in an ever-expanding ecosystem, enhancing users' sense of participation and belonging.
The power of community and culture
When discussing the community, both DeFi Dave and Jani mentioned that the culture and community atmosphere behind Bong Beras are very important. Jani stated that although the market has experienced fluctuations and uncertainties, the community culture surrounding Bong Beras is relaxed and humorous, with everyone supporting each other and sharing experiences during this process.
He mentioned that participating in such communities gives him a sense of belonging. Although the market environment is volatile, being able to build and create with like-minded people is a very valuable experience.
Strategies from holding to trading
Jani shared his strategy in trading Bong Beras. He realized that in the NFT market, possessing the rarest or most common assets usually yields better liquidity. Thus, he began trading within the community, acquiring more NFTs through exchanges, thereby establishing his advantage in the market.
He illustrated that by exchanging one second-generation Bong Bera for three more common NFTs, he not only increased the number of assets but also created more opportunities for future trades. This strategy not only kept him competitive in the market but also strengthened his connection with the community.
Building the Honey Jar mechanism
Origins of the Honey Jar mechanism
Jani shared his experience when launching Honey Jar (THJ) in 2023, admitting that the initial motivation was to make a huge profit by selling a Bong Bera. He described how he conceived the idea of putting Bong Bera into a smart contract and building a hive system.
He mentioned that the plan was to sell 16,420 Honey Jars, each priced at about $100, so he could successfully exit Bong Bera while allowing others to win Bong Bera, achieving a win-win situation.
Open-mindedness and collaboration
In the process of building Honey Jar, Jani emphasized his habit of thinking in public settings and the importance of collaboration with others. He mentioned finding a partner who is 'a bit crazy spiritually' to jointly develop the project. His open-minded approach has led him to form different modes of expression and communication in his ever-changing identity.
Participation and feedback of the community
In this process, Smokey contacted him and invited him to participate in a project under construction. Jani recalled his early experiences in the crypto space, where he felt he was the 'dumbest' person in some situations, yet he still managed to access some cutting-edge ideas and technologies.
He mentioned that seeing Berra Chain innovate in the economic model regarding the relationship between validators and applications made him realize the project's potential, even though the technology and ecosystem at that time were not mature.
Facing challenges and adapting
Jani talked about the challenges he encountered while participating in communities, such as frequently being kicked out of Discord, which frustrated him. He mentioned that despite these difficulties, he still strives to maintain interaction with the community, sharing his thoughts and experiences.
This experience not only deepened his understanding of the crypto ecosystem but also encouraged him to maintain a positive attitude while facing challenges, seeking solutions.
Honeycombs Structure, Integrators, and Community Participation
Jani mentioned that during the process of building the Honey Jar project, he realized many people were eager about the Bera Chain project and actively sought collaboration. After two months of development, they had reached collaboration intentions with nearly 40 partners, many of whom hoped to offer some form of benefits for Honey Jar.
He said this spontaneous business development (BD) phenomenon made him aware of the project's potential. The partners were not merely looking to do a logo co-promotion but saw the value of the project and believed it could solve their problems.
Modular thinking and problem-solving
Jani compared this collaborative relationship to 'networked assistance', similar to the combination of LEGO blocks. He emphasized that participants seek solutions in this process, achieving synergy through 'inputs' and 'outputs'. This mindset has facilitated the gradual emergence of the narrative of 'benefit aggregators'.
He believes that Honey Jar is one of the early participants in this field. He mentioned that the project has brought actual benefits to holders through multiple airdrops, covering the investment costs of many users.
Market environment and project release
Jani reviewed the project's launch date, mentioning they chose to release on March 3, a date related to Ethereum Denver. Although this date is considered unlucky in the crypto circle, they decided to boldly try it. Shortly after the release, the Silicon Valley Bank crisis occurred, making them feel that everything was very 'perfect'.
He indicated that in such a market environment, their project successfully completed minting and opted to promote themselves casually, even calling themselves a 'scam'. This unconventional attitude attracted many like-minded individuals, forming a unique energy and atmosphere.
Taking work seriously and having a sense of humor
Jani emphasized that although the team does not take itself too seriously, their serious attitude towards work is evident. He believes that this sense of humor and unconventional style helps them stand out in a competitive market and attract more community participants.
Developing a cybernetic culture based on Honeycombs
Real integration and community participation
DeFi Dave raised a question, asking what practical integrations exist in the Honey Jar project beyond airdrops. Jani replied that his view on the 'cult' narrative is different, believing that this narrative is typically based on the difficulties of leaving, while in the Bera Eco, participation is actually very simple, and anyone can easily join.
He mentioned that although people can leave at any time, in reality, very few choose to do so, reflecting the community's appeal.
Accessible participation and community autonomy
Jani further discussed their progress made without true support from foundational organizations. He recalled that during the 'Chaos Carnival' held at Ethereum Denver, the community's participation and activity caught the attention of external investors. Even though the foundational organization invested almost no marketing resources, their activities generated significant impact on social media, causing some outsiders to mistakenly believe Honey Jar was part of the foundational organization.
This phenomenon highlights the autonomy and self-organizing capability of the community, demonstrating that in a decentralized environment, real power comes from participants' enthusiasm and creativity.
Relationship with foundational organizations
Jani mentioned that their relationship with the foundational organization is relatively independent. They are not interfered with by the foundational organization and can freely conduct their activities. This freedom allows them to flexibly adjust their strategies and directions based on community needs and feedback.
He pointed out that the recently introduced Request for Proposals (RFP) mechanism by the foundational organization is a wise move as it standardizes the way ecosystem applications acquire liquidity, avoiding redundant communication between multiple teams. This approach not only saves time but also improves efficiency.
The knowledge of the community and the support of foundational organizations
Jani emphasized that the foundational organization recognizes that frontline participants understand the community's needs and usage better than they do. This recognition of community knowledge demonstrates the foundational organization's humility and wisdom in supporting ecosystem development.
He believes that the habits and preferences of community members largely determine the vitality of the ecosystem, while the role of the foundational organization is to provide support and resources for this vitality to promote broader participation and innovation.
The cybernetic culture of Berachain compared to other L1/L2 blockchains
Unique cybernetic culture
Jani mentioned that the cybernetic culture of Berachain showcases a unique mechanism that can convey value to those most likely to become loyal users. He stated that throughout his involvement in the blockchain industry, he has never seen an L1 thrive culturally like Berachain.
He further explained the meaning of 'cybernetic culture', pointing out that one significant feature of Berachain is its ability to precisely target user groups exhibiting 'cult-like' behavior. This behavior can manifest as high participation during certain periods or engaging in seemingly unprofitable yet very interesting activities.
User behavior and community participation
Jani illustrated that about 20% of ETA and NFTs are sent by users to burn addresses simply because it is fun, not for other purposes. This indicates that a small portion of users in the community exhibit extremely high engagement and sense of humor.
He also mentioned that although Honey Jar's NFTs are free and their value once soared to 0.7, still about 15% of holders chose not to sell, even increasing their holdings. These users have invested real money and time over the past few years, experiencing a series of market fluctuations and uncertainties, forming deep 'trauma bonds'.
Comparison with other L1s
Jani emphasized that Berachain was launched in a cultural environment that is already mature and has experienced multiple market challenges, a resilience and vitality that is hard to find in other L1s. He recalled his experiences before the birth of Bitcoin, when people's understanding of blockchain was still vague, and now, the launch of Berachain coincides with a cultural movement that is already prepared.
He believes that this cultural background provides strong support for the promotion of new technologies, allowing them to establish deeper connections and resonances with the community.
The combination of technology and movement
Finally, Jani mentioned that the launch of Berachain is not just a technological release but the beginning of a movement. By closely integrating with the community, Berachain can establish a sense of belonging and identity among users, a cultural atmosphere that other L1s cannot match.
The rise of Honeycombs and changing community dynamics
Jani mentioned that Honeycombs (Honeycomb) performed exceptionally well over the past year, becoming the best-performing asset in the NFT space. He pointed out that although assets like 'schizo posters' exceeded Honeycombs during certain brief periods, overall, the value of Honeycombs increased 12 times in the past 12 months, far exceeding the performance of other NFTs.
NFT ecosystem and community participation
Jani continued to explore the dynamic changes within the NFT ecosystem, mentioning that in the last cycle, 80% of new wallets and market participants entered the crypto space through NFTs. He emphasized that although some users' activity has declined, many users still hold assets on-chain, ready to participate again.
He mentioned that research has investigated the behavior of users who entered the crypto market through NFTs, revealing that a very small proportion of these users transitioned to DeFi. This indicates that most newcomers still pay attention to the NFT ecosystem, but their participation in DeFi remains relatively limited.
Visibility of the community and invisible economy
Jani pointed out that although Vera (possibly referring to a project or concept) seems to occupy a significant amount of attention in certain crypto communities (CT), this phenomenon is invisible in many areas of on-chain economics. He found this situation very interesting as it shows an asymmetric information advantage, providing many actionable opportunities for the community.
He emphasized that after in-depth analysis of the data, many valuable insights can be found, revealing the true dynamics of user behavior and providing guidance for future strategies.
Opportunities for the Future
Jani is confident about the future of Honeycombs and its community, believing that in the current market environment, Honeycombs can leverage its unique culture and user base to continue leading the NFT field's development. He looks forward to the community seizing more opportunities for further prosperity in future dynamic changes.
Roles and social interactions in different fields
Role and identity switching
DeFi Dave mentioned that in the crypto space, many people create different identities to adapt to various social environments. He described this phenomenon as somewhat like 'people in the dark', because in certain situations, individuals may present completely different selves in different social circles. He pointed out that although everyone wears a mask to some extent, he himself appears more pronounced in this regard.
Jani added that people present themselves differently in various environments. For example, the identity displayed in the crypto community may differ from how they perform in front of family or friends. This self-identification of identity may lead to difficulties when people switch social circles.
Dynamics of social interaction
Jani further shared an observation about social interactions, using 'first response time' as a metric to evaluate the activity level of online interactions. When he shows interest in a topic on social media, the speed of receiving feedback can reflect the community's activity level around that topic. For example, when he inquired about SPX, almost no one responded within 24 hours, with only a few providing basic suggestions, making him realize the low interactivity in this field.
In contrast, when he mentioned 'Sparto Gremlins', his social media notifications were instantly flooded with interactions. This strong response indicated the activity level of that topic within the community, suggesting that his connection to the Bitcoin community is tighter.
Community Overlap and Interaction Strategies
DeFi Dave said that this might relate to the level of overlap between the Bitcoin community and other communities. He speculated that the connection between the Bitcoin community and other crypto communities (like the SPX community) might be less, thus having different identities in these areas could affect the frequency and quality of interactions.
He recalled a tweet from last year, which, although not specifically aimed at the SPX community, unexpectedly attracted the attention of many people in that field. This phenomenon made him realize that the interactions and overlaps between communities can greatly influence an individual's experience on social media.
A new definition of community phenomena
Jani posed a question about what the definition of 'community' (cult) really is. He pointed out that the term has multiple meanings in contemporary contexts, such as referring to the tragedy of 'Jonestown' or SBF-style FTX, but can also be interpreted from the Latin 'cultus', meaning 'to cultivate' or 'to grow'. He spends considerable time gardening outside the crypto realm, which allows him to reflect on the essence of community.
Short-term vs. Long-term thinking
Jani believes that the crypto space often exhibits short-term thinking, focusing on rapid market cycles and attention spans. He thinks that adopting a gardening mindset towards the crypto community would be more beneficial, as gardening requires patience and long-term investment. He mentioned that during this process, communities go through different 'seasons', where certain groups may appear particularly active at specific times.
He pointed out that when the community performs well, members may choose to exit due to having received substantial rewards, which is a common characteristic of community development.
The persistence of the community and culture
Jani emphasized that although many people have reasons to leave certain communities, for those excellent builders, once they integrate into the community culture, the community becomes more enduring and sustainable. He believes that community culture is a natural system that can remain vital even through significant changes and different seasons.
He mentioned that when establishing 'Honeycombs', the initial goal was to raise funds during the bear market, but as more people participated, the community's activity and interactivity significantly increased.
Community innovation and construction
Jani further mentioned that many projects built within the Bera ecosystem have integrated with 'Honeycombs', indicating community activity and innovation. He noted that although it seems quiet on Ethereum, there are still many builders actively innovating in the Bera ecosystem.
He believes that many builders continue to participate because of their love for the field and confidence in the future, not merely for financial gain.
Summary and Outlook
Finally, Jani summarized that the definition of community is not just a simple label but a complex ecosystem involving interactions between members, cultural transmission, and a shared vision for the future. He looks forward to more people understanding and participating in this new community phenomenon, further advancing the development of the crypto field.
Sustainably prioritizing community support
A new definition of 'community'
DeFi Dave posed a question about the new definition of 'community' (cult). He mentioned that traditionally our understanding of a community is often negative, such as the tragedy of 'Jonestown', where people are thought to be passively brainwashed and indoctrinated. He hopes to elaborate on this new definition, emphasizing its proactivity.
Lessons from Web2
Jani explained the lessons learned from Web2. He pointed out that users are often viewed as products in Web2, with issues in the flow of value and power dynamics. Users' interests are often overlooked, and profits are privatized for various purposes. He believes that 'Honeycombs' provides a framework for communities to productize themselves, allowing community members to benefit from it.
Community as a product
Jani further elaborated on how 'Honeycombs' operate. He mentioned that although team members are distributed across different continents, they do not hold regular team meetings but collaborate efficiently in an asynchronous manner. He emphasized that the active participation of community members and network effects enable the entire team to operate effectively.
Holders of 'Honeycombs' are incentivized to expand their networks, so that when engaging with core teams, the discussions shift to adjustments of specific details rather than sales processes.
Network effects and adaptability
Jani introduced the concepts of 'network effects' and 'adaptive culture'. He believes that community members can gain corresponding benefits during participation, which is proportional to the size of the community they engage with. Additionally, for projects integrating 'Honeycombs', they can quickly tap into an active user base, allowing them to focus more on their own construction.
He mentioned that the behavior of users holding 'Honeycombs' in decentralized finance (DeFi) can be analyzed, providing valuable data support for the project and helping the team better understand user needs and market dynamics.
Summary and Outlook
Finally, DeFi Dave and Jani emphasized that through this new definition of community, the community is not just a passive recipient, but an active participant in co-creating value within an ecosystem. This model based on collaboration and shared interests can promote the sustainable development of the community.
Community phenomenon as cybernetic organizations
The new definition of community
Jani returned to the discussion of the new definition of 'community' (cult). He emphasized that from their perspective, a community is more like a natural system that can generate dynamic interactions between the digital realm and the real world. He cited the Latin root 'cultus', meaning 'to cultivate', pointing out that this new definition emphasizes the self-sustainability of the community.
Self-sustainability of culture and community
He mentioned that a pattern that has persisted throughout human history is that self-sustaining cultures and communities can survive in different environments, whether in 'summer' or 'winter'. This self-sustainability enables communities to face various challenges. Jani believes that assets and tools derived from cybernetic culture will be more sustainable in the long run than short-term fads.
Financial populism and absurdism
He mentioned that in today's era, the phenomenon of financial populism and absurdism is very evident, with many emerging financial tools and assets (such as meme coins) being manifestations of this trend. He believes these assets can be traded but do not necessarily represent lasting value. He compared short-term market trends with long-term sustainability, believing that the latter is more worthy of investment.
Adaptability and future sustainability
Jani expressed confidence in cybernetic culture, believing that these cultures can persist due to their adaptability. He mentioned that although meme coins might become the latest version of financial absurdism, he prefers to invest his Bitcoin in cultures that are adaptable and capable of sustained development in the future.
Summary and Outlook
Finally, he emphasized that understanding communities as cybernetic organizations is important because they can maintain vitality and adaptability in an ever-changing environment. This perspective can help us understand current market dynamics and guide our investment decisions for more sustainable projects in the future.
The key to sustaining community phenomena in the long run
DeFi Dave asked what the key to sustaining a community over the long term is. He mentioned factors discussed earlier, such as shared trauma and difficult moments, community signals, and inside jokes, and inquired what other aspects could help the community achieve long-term sustainability.
The relationship between economy and culture
Jani responded that the economy plays an important role in the long-term sustainability of communities. He believes that the key to community and culture lies in maintaining some form of coordinated collective effort in different directions. He mentioned that communities need diversified participation mechanisms to support economic flow and engagement.
Sustainability of closed-loop systems
He further explained that communities with closed-loop systems are more sustainable, as value can flow back into the system more effectively. He mentioned that mechanisms like Bera Chain can create more feedback loops, enhancing the community's self-sustainability.
Participation and Feedback
Jani emphasized that participants should seek areas where they can concentrate their efforts, like Bera Chain being one such example. He mentioned that the feedback loop within the community helps members better understand and adapt to the environment, thus maintaining vitality.
Self-regulation and Diversity
When discussing how to regulate dopamine levels, Jani shared his gardening experiences, emphasizing the importance of finding balance between online and offline activities. He mentioned that participating in activities with different rhythms helps restore mental health and avoid excessive immersion in high-intensity online activities.
The definition and participation of culture
DeFi Dave inquired about more definitions of culture.
Jani stated that he is writing related content and mentioned an article he published on Mirror discussing the history and development of Bera Chain culture. He encourages everyone to explore different communities to find suitable ways to participate.
Conclusion and Future Outlook
Finally, DeFi Dave and Jani discussed the future of communities, emphasizing the importance of creating positive feedback loops and diverse participation. They encourage listeners to explore different communities and platforms to find the culture and modes of participation that suit them best.