In this podcast, we interviewed Willem Schroé, founder of Botanix, about his background in cryptography and mathematics, and the journey that led him to create a decentralized Bitcoin Layer 2 project. Willem introduced Botanix, focusing on how it enables free participation by users around the world through a fully decentralized structure. He detailed Botanix's secure and scalable design, supporting Bitcoin DeFi and being compatible with the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM).
The conversation also touched on Bitcoin Staking, the latest developments in Layer 2, and the differences between Botanix and similar projects such as Babylon. Willem emphasized the role of Botanix in the Bitcoin ecosystem and the importance of decentralization, and shared his insights on the growth of the ecosystem, market volatility, and his confidence in Bitcoin Layer 2's renewed attention as the infrastructure matures.
Botanix launched the public testnet Aragog on December 4, and the mainnet is scheduled to go online in the first quarter of 2025.
Opening and Introduction
Colin：
Welcome to the Wu Says Blockchain Podcast. I’m Colin, the founder of Wu Says. My first question is, can you introduce yourself, your background, and the original intention of starting Botanix?
Willem：
Sure, Colin, it's great to be here. I'm Willem, I'm from Belgium, I have a strong math background and I've won prizes in national math competitions. I later studied Electronic Engineering and Cryptography at KU Leuven. I actually went to the same school as Len Sassaman, the man who is said to be Satoshi Nakamoto, and we shared the same advisor, Bart Preneel. My research there was mainly focused on authenticated encryption, and my cryptography work has largely inspired the design of Botanix.
After that, I lived in Saudi Arabia for two years before going to Harvard Business School. About two years ago, I started developing Botanix. I realized that Bitcoin is the most decentralized and secure form of currency we have, and it is also the largest crypto asset by market capitalization, but it lacks application scenarios. In the world outside of Bitcoin, application scenarios have been recognized by the market and created huge value. Most of these applications are built on virtual machines such as EVM.
So I started thinking: If Bitcoin can be the most reliable currency, why not bring applications to Bitcoin? At that time, there was very little discussion about Bitcoin Layer 2, and it was this idea that began to take shape. At the time, I lived in Boston, surrounded by many Bitcoin Core contributors and excellent cryptographers, especially at MIT. I joined the MIT Bitcoin Club, and through these interactions, I developed the concept that is now called Spiderchain.
Spiderchain is a new type of Layer 2 solution that aims to be fully decentralized. We want to build a Layer 2 that allows anyone, anywhere to participate and run a full node. Botanix is an EVM equivalent of Bitcoin Layer 2, and we are working on this fully decentralized project.
On HBO’s Satoshi Nakamoto Documentary and Len Sassaman as a Potential Satoshi Nakamoto Candidate
Colin：
Before we dive into Botanix, there has been a lot of discussion about the recent HBO documentary about Satoshi Nakamoto. What do you think of Len as a candidate for Satoshi Nakamoto? Have you worked with him? What are your thoughts on the identity of Satoshi Nakamoto?
Willem：
In fact, I believe Len could be Satoshi. Many data points point to this possibility. Clues about Satoshi include his blog posts, white papers, writing style, and even time stamps of launches. We know Satoshi made some choices, such as using the Secp256k1 curve, which is not an officially recognized cryptographic protocol in the United States and is not commonly used in the United States. These details support the possibility that Len is Satoshi.
Len's background fits these clues perfectly. He worked with Hal Finney, and his thesis advisor was David Chaum, one of the pioneers of digital currency. Len grew up in the United States and came to Belgium to study, and his time zone matches the front-page headline of the (London Times) quoted in the Bitcoin Genesis Block, which does not appear in other regions. International newspapers are often placed at the entrance of the cryptography department of our university, and many people read the news there. These details make perfect sense in Len's background.
Additionally, Satoshi's code is primarily written in C++, which is more C-oriented, and Len has a programming background like that. Although we can't be 100% sure that he has the relevant private keys, Len is known for his privacy and has even interacted with the FBI. He knows how to protect his identity and often uses pseudonyms. Although it is impossible to confirm, these data points make him a very likely candidate.
When was your first exposure to Bitcoin? Were you involved in early development?
Colin：
So when was your first exposure to Bitcoin? Were you involved in its early development?
Willem：
I first came across Bitcoin in 2012 when I was studying cryptography. We even discussed Bitcoin in the cryptography class, which was interesting because my professor was Bart Preneel, who is an authority in cryptography and Len Sassaman's mentor. That was my first exposure to Bitcoin. Although I took a break from the field after the cryptography class, I got back into the Bitcoin world in 2017 or 2018.
Thoughts on the current Bitcoin ecosystem and the relationship between Botanix and Babylon
Colin：
So back to Botanix, what do you think of the current Bitcoin ecosystem? Babylon has also been very popular recently and is said to be launching a new token next month. Do you have any plans to cooperate with Babylon? What do you think of Babylon and Bitcoin staking?
Willem：
I think Babylon has done a great job. The concept of Bitcoin staking was first proposed by Robin Linus. Similar to Babylon, we also realized that Bitcoin is one of the most valuable staking assets. Babylon uses Bitcoin as a staking asset in a similar way to EigenLayer for security of multiple services. We chose the potential of EVM and built a PoS EVM that uses Bitcoin as a staking asset.
We don't have direct technical collaboration with Babylon at the moment, but we have some overlap in projects and joint marketing. We often attend events together, I really admire David's work and we have a lot of common views.
Why did Botanix choose EVM instead of UTXO for its architecture?
Colin：
The next question is about why you chose EVM. We know that there is a lot of discussion on Twitter and in the Bitcoin community in the Asian market about the potential of Bitcoin with EVM. Why did you choose EVM instead of UTXO? For example, projects like CKB seem to have chosen UTXO, right?
Willem：
That's a good question. When we made the decision about two years ago, there were multiple options, including the UTXO model, EVM, Solana VM, and Move VM. I think of these options like the competition in the early operating systems. Back in the 1980s, there were 30 to 40 operating systems, but in the end Microsoft Windows became the mainstream. Although Windows is not the best or the most secure, it is the most widely distributed.
Likewise, the EVM is currently the most widely distributed. The infrastructure, tools, and auditing agencies around the EVM are very well developed, and its ecosystem is huge. Therefore, while the EVM may not be the best or most secure choice, I believe it will eventually dominate the virtual machine space.
Does Botanix support Bitcoin Layer 1 assets such as Ordinals, Runes, and BRC-20?
Colin:
In the first half of this year, some Bitcoin Layer 1 assets such as Ordinals, Runes, and BRC-20 have been very popular in the Chinese and Asian markets. What do you think of these Bitcoin Layer 1 assets? Will Botanix support them?
Willem:
I think that’s a good thing. The more development, applications, and assets we can bring to Bitcoin, the better. So we definitely plan to support them. The main issue with Ordinals, Runes, and BRC-20 tokens is transaction speed — you have to wait for multiple Bitcoin blocks and confirmations, which slows things down. There’s also the issue of mempool scrambling, where if you try to buy an asset, someone else might get scrambled before you.
With support for Ordinals and Runes on Botanix, users will be able to trade these assets with full confirmation within seconds, which will greatly improve the user experience.
When will Botanix be launched? What are its main technical advantages?
Colin:
So when will Botanix go live, recently? Can you outline the main technical advantages of Botanix?
Willem:
Okay, let me start with the technical advantages. What’s unique about Botanix is that we are the first in the Layer 2 space to achieve full decentralization. Currently, most Ethereum Layer 2 solutions are very centralized — they use ZK rollups technology, which, while technically trustless, are not decentralized and lack censorship resistance. For example, if the US government issued a subpoena to an Ethereum Layer 2 solution like Base, they might be forced to comply or even shut down. It’s a similar situation with Arbitrum, and although you can get your funds back, these networks are not censorship-resistant.
Botanix will be fully decentralized from day one, with nodes in 15 jurisdictions around the world. From day one, no single entity — not even us — will control the network. We will only run one node, and we will be the first project to launch with fully decentralized ordering, which no other project has done at launch.
Willem:
This is critical for Bitcoin because Bitcoin does not have DeFi at the bottom, and DeFi requires decentralized infrastructure. Ethereum's bottom layer is decentralized, so its Layer 2 can be centralized. But for Bitcoin, we want to achieve fully decentralized DeFi, and Botanix provides real technical advantages here. Our code is almost complete, and the test network v1 will be launched in a few weeks, followed by an audit, and the main network is expected to be launched in the first quarter of next year.
Colin:
Oh, it's only a few months away and it looks like you guys are going to be very busy.
Willem:
Absolutely. It’s going to be a very exciting few months. Many people have been discussing the potential of Bitcoin DeFi and Layer 2 solutions, but the space is pretty much empty right now. I think we have a great opportunity to crack this market and bring true Bitcoin DeFi to the world.
What is the current state of the Botanix ecosystem? Which applications have the most potential?
Colin:
I think Botanix has built a strong brand image and is easily remembered as one of the most decentralized Bitcoin Layer 2 projects. A few months ago, I met some developers in Hong Kong who were building applications on Botanix, which surprised me a little because Botanix was not that well-known at the time, while projects like Merlin were more prominent. So what is the Botanix ecosystem like now? How many applications are being built on it? Which ones do you think have the most potential?
Willem:
Indeed, we have a strong ecosystem with many developers who really believe in what we are doing. They choose to build on Botanix because they trust our decentralized approach and our focus on security. This is what attracts developers to our platform.
Over the past year, we have been building this ecosystem with a focus on quality rather than quantity. It is relatively easy to copy code, rebrand and launch an application or DEX, but attracting high-quality teams with solid go-to-market strategies, especially big projects in the Ethereum field, is the real challenge. This is also what we are good at, and we take a steady development approach — — our growth is incremental, which is very consistent with our long-term vision.
We are building Botanix with a 50-year vision. We want Botanix to still be around for decades to come, and this long-term focus is attracting developers. We currently have about 40-50 dApps and infrastructure partners ready to go live, including some top projects (some have not yet been announced), as well as popular applications on Solana, Ethereum, and Arbitrum. In addition, we also bring unique Bitcoin native applications that were not possible before.
One area that I’m particularly excited about is Bitcoin DeFi. Many Bitcoin holders don’t want to sell their Bitcoin; they prefer to use it as collateral. For example, if they want to buy a car, they would rather use their Bitcoin as collateral to borrow stablecoins instead of selling it directly. This Bitcoin-native DeFi, where users can borrow stablecoins directly on Bitcoin Layer 2 and return to the Layer 1 base network without wrapping or Ethereum, is a major improvement in user experience.
Beyond that, we also support assets like Runes and Ordinals. I think Ordinals and Runes will have a “season 2” once Botanix provides a smoother user experience. Imagine applications like Curve or leveraged trading — some of our DEXs can offer leveraged trading of Runes and Ordinals with up to 100x leverage. In addition, we are introducing a large perpetual contract DEX like Vertex from Arbitrum, which will support leveraged Bitcoin trading on the decentralized Bitcoin Layer 2. If the trade is profitable, the user can immediately transfer it back to the cold wallet on Bitcoin Layer 1. I believe these applications will gain widespread adoption.
Focus on ecosystem construction, no airdrop plan has been announced yet
Colin:
Airdrops are a hot topic in the Asian community, but they are still controversial. What do you think of airdrops? Has the team considered possible airdrop distribution plans or rules?
Willem:
Our main focus right now is on building an extremely secure, decentralized ecosystem of applications and expansion. This has been our core goal since day one. In short, we cannot comment on the airdrop plan for now, but this will be a topic of discussion in the future.
How can community members join the Botanix ecosystem?
Colin:
If the community wants to follow the project developments, or even join the Botanix ecosystem, what can they do?
Willem:
We have a full ambassador program on Discord. Our team consistently delivers on promises and often exceeds expectations. We won’t overdo it, but ambassadors have already received some rewards and more will be offered in the future. Many of our founding projects will be airdropped soon after the Botanix mainnet goes live. For example, we have Bitcoin-backed stablecoins, DEXs, and even perpetual DEXs. Each of these projects will be airdropped within the Botanix ecosystem, and active members will be able to receive airdrop rewards as well as native DeFi earnings from multiple projects, with significant potential gains.
In addition, we will also launch a large mainnet event, especially to attract Asian and Chinese users. This is an educational event to help users understand the ecosystem and obtain various benefits.
To stay active, following us on Twitter and joining our active Discord community are great places to start. We also have dedicated Telegram groups for different regions. We’ve been organizing meetups and regularly attend conferences, so there are lots of ways to get involved.
